BIG Brakes on a small budget

[Aussie Mike]

Hi All, Here's another big long boring post about my Cobra build.

Before I get into it and everyone starts yelling at me for getting distracted from getting the car running I have to say this is all Phil Neall's fault.

I was happily working away on my wiring loom. Phil and I were talking about big brake options for the rear of his Classic Revival which then led me to have some ideas about the brakes on the front my Classic Revival. (The rear brakes will be covered in a future installment of this automotive soap opera).

I'd been drooling over some big front discs and calipers from companies like AP, Alcon, Hi-Spec and Brembo without really having the $3K+ to buy one of these setups. To put some big brakes on the front of my car I'd have to take a different approach.

First step was to find some suitable rotors at the right price. I ended up finding a set of 330mm X 28mm HSV rotors. These are readily available and relatively cheap.

The original Jag front rotors are only 285mm X 24mm so this was a big increase as you can see from this pic.



I could have actually fitted the 343mm X 32mm HSV discs into my 17" rims but that ment a bit more machining on the calipers and reduced the options for future caliper upgrades.

Next step was to make some hubs to mount the discs to the Jag spindles. I could have machined down the original Jag hubs and used them but it wouldn't have left much of a spiggot to suport the pin drive adaptor. It would also space my wheels 10mm further out.

I bought a 6" diameter billet of 2011 T6 Aluminium which machines nicely and has good strength. $150 woth of aluminium for two hubs wasn't too bad as long as you don't make any mistakes when machining it. I machined them up to be thicker and stronger in important areas. Arround the bearings it's approx 90mm thick rather than about 80mm for the steel hub. The spiggot is 74mm right through to provide plenty of support for the pin drive adapror, The drive flange is 20mm thick and ment the use of some wheel studs with a longer shank. I believe the ones I settled on are XD Falcon. I'm still waiting for the other 7 to turn up at the auto parts shop.

The hub uses the standard Jag bearings and seals and is significantly lighter than the original steel unit.



The other good thing about this style of hub and disc is it opens tha back of the disc to let the air flow through better for cooling.



With the discs now mounted and keeping the wheels in thier original track it was time to find some suitable calipers. PBR are doing a number of after market performance brake upgrade kits. These are much the same as the factory setups used on the FPV ford and HSV Holden vehicles. They use a large 2 piston caliper which on closer inspection is almost identicle to the PBR caliper used on the VZ Commodore. It's just machined to suit a larger diameter disk and has a nice coat of red, yellow or blue paint and the appropriate logo.

I picked up a pair of brand new VZ Commodore calipers on eBay. They are a physically very big caliper with a lot of pad surface area. Almost half as much again than the standard Jag caliper.



The Jag caliper is in the fore ground. The perspective on the photo makes the PBR caliper look smaller but it's actually the same size or even a bit bigger.

The tricky part was mounting the caliper to the standard jag mounting points. Finding a position for the caliper where it will easily bolt up yet still clear everything when turning the wheel full lock and the full range of suspension movement. I ended up making adaptor brackets from some 10mm stainless steel and they turned out pretty neat and tidy.



Here's the caliper mounting



All that remains to do is fit the wheel studs when they turn up and get a pair of braided lines made to suit the new calipers.





Now I'll get back to that wiring loom.

Cheers

[Philm]

HI Mike,
That is a good set up, I have done the same but I got some hubs made from Hoppers stoppers for $400.00 included bearings and seals.

I used the 343mm HSV rotor, 2 piece and a Wilwood caliper.

I also took the opportunity to change the front stud pattern and center bore to ford.

Phil

[Aussie Mike]

Hi Phil,

Your setup was part of the inspiration. I spoke to the guys at Hoppers but I believe their hub was a different offset to what I wanted. I also wanted the spiggot to better fit the pin drive adaptor. If I didn't already have my wheels I probably would have gone that way and changed the stud pattern too.

Cheers

[Mando]

Setup looks great Mike. Have you gained any extra dish on the outside of the
rim with the new setup?

Regards.

[Leeroy]

Mike
Beautiful job of the caliper bracket looks like a bought one. Like most of the thinks you design. Hope you made a drawing of that little sucker, might be calling for it myself.

[LoBelly]

Mike,

The more the merrier - more go, more stop etc.

Same for your informative posts, how to's or what I did's with pics are my favorites.

thanks again

LoBelly

[Aussie Mike]

Hi Mando, the offset worked out the same as the Jag setup. I wanted to keep it that way so my wheels would end up in the right spot. You could however gain about 20mm of dish (possibly more) on the front if you wanted to and still clear everything.

I'll try to do a couple of CAD drawings of the brackets and the hubs. I reckon getting the hubs done on CNC would be worth the extra expense. There's a lot of work turning a billet that size down into a hub whilst keeping it accurate.

Cheers

[Beejay]

I will probably look at the big disc conversion down the track, after rego and paint etc.

The Willwood is looking like the best option, but I am worried about them not being legal. Perhaps a set of Brembos will come up cheap one day!

Ben

[Aussie Mike]

Let your wife look for some brakes. With her amazing bargain hunting skills I'm sure you'll find a top notch setup for next to nothing.

Cheers

[Aussie Mike]

Well with this new brake setup I now have a spare pair of Jaguar Calipers. I rebuilt these with 8x brand new stainless steel pistons (at a cost of about $30 each), new O rings and seals and new pads. They also come with new rubber lines to suit a Classic Revival chassis.

They owe me quite a bit of money but if any one is interested you can have them for $350 and I'll throw in the drilled and slotted discs. That's less than the cost of the parts.

Cheers

[Gav]

OOOH those rotors sound tempting.

[Aussie Mike]

Sorry Gav, Plums beat you to them.

Bob's going to put the discs and calipers on the front of his new G-Force.

Cheers

[Philm]

HI Bejay.
The willwood calipers are not legal as they have the NPT thread for the input port.

NPT thread is not legal for use in brake systems in Australia.

I have had my calipers dissassembled and re-tapped with the correct thread. I had Race brakes do this and they then supplied the flexible lines.

With this modification they still worked out to be about 1/2 the price of a comparable Brembo or AP caliper.


Phil

[Aussie Mike]

The other legal issue with the Wilwoods is that the pistons have no dust seals. This is the case with quite a few of the race calipers. Many of the big manufacturers have road spec versions of their calipers that include dust seals. Brembo and AP are two of them.

Cheers

[Philm]

This is the big draw back with the wilwood caliper, they have no dust seals, I am not sure if it is a legal issue or more of a wear out factor, without dust seals you will be replacing pistons way sooner than other calipers.

The caliper I am using is from the Brake up grade pack for the Australian Built GTO. Some companies have marketed them in Australia as upgrades for the Commodore. I bet they didn't disclose that they are actually illegal!!!!

Yes, definitely an after rego addition if using Wilwood. I know of a kit car manuafacturer that supplied Wilwood calipers as there upgrade and car were registered with these calipers .

When I was looking for brake bits DBA had some 4 piston Brembo calipers going real cheap, they were part of a brake upgrade kit that didn,t sell real well. I am not sure if they are lug mount or radial mount but they would fit a 330 x 28 rotor.

Phil

[Beejay]

I am thinking that the Jag brakes will do fine for cruising for a while.

They will look poxy with the big wheels I plan to run, but that is OK.

Does anyone know if there are major differences between the Brembos on different production cars?

Ben

[Leeroy]

Beejay

I am really keen to see Mikes setup and will probably be asking him lots of questions to eventually upgrade to what he has done as I am keen to join a club and get into hillclimb/track stuff.

I have the the standard jag front brakes and fitted some race compound pads for Winton and was really happy with them without any big braking fade after 4 or so laps. (tyres were the biggest fade) So I think you will be more than pleased with what you have. The non power assist setup is something which is quite different for many drivers but I really like the feel it gives you thru your foot.

My advise stick with the jag stuff u have a spend the money on other stuff cos the lots of it

[Beejay]

What pads Leeroy?

Good to hear that the stock brakes will do me fine for a while.

One of the biggest headaches when building a Cobra is to decide what to spend money on now or later after rego.

Ben

[Philm]

HI Beejay,

Leeroy is right, the jag brakes with good pads are excellent and with what we do with our cars are more than enough. There are many other areas that would need upgrading before brakes become a problem (driver skill is number 1).

I just did not like the look of the standard size brakes in an "open" style rim. So my brake upgrade was more for looks than looking for better braking. It just got out of hand with one thing leading to another.

Your brakes look good, no need to change them.


Phil

[400TT]

I went Wilwood for my brake upgrade on the GT40.

Wilwood Pros:
Cheapest price wise
Plenty of pad options
Cheap plentiful parts available, even here in Oz.
Good performance(as long as you get the right caliper models)
I could buy them as a bolt on kit. The rear needs modifying to fit, but includes drum handbrake.

Wilwood Cons:
No dust seals, is this really a problem in our cars. Not from current users and not with so cheap parts(pistons) available even locally.
Not legal, but it's a grey area.

After looking into other premium brands I started to feel the sting of being locked in for expensive part prices if I ever need any. And some also stung you pretty heavily for non-standard and limited choices in pads.

The next best option I looked at were Skyline/300ZX R32/R33 4 piston calipers and DBA rotors.

And then there is always the ebay Commodore calipers, always a favourite.