Gen III good and bad years

[Wally68]

Still deciding which way to go 302 or Gen III

Can anyone tell me if the gen 3 had any major problems and if so what year.
I have heard that the early ones had some major drama, but this was from a Ford Man.


Dave

[Gav]

The early engines had problems with oil rings, but even with the 1ltr of oil usage per 5000 k's I'd still use a chev any day.
The 302 is an old engine, ford performance engine parts have always been dear, rego problems, availability, looks, putting the wind up ford guys with a chev powered cobra......
Need I continue?

[boxhead]

Gen III makes more power in standard trim, weighs alot less = better balance and handling.

[Plums]

And you can get it tuned to make great power and get better than standard fuel economy...

Get a 2003 or later engine and you'll have no problems.

It would be good to see another G-force with an LS1

[LoBelly]

...oh please

you guys could talk youselves into a cult without even noticing

...but then....




LoBelly

[NASSTY]

Wally,
Don't know what the rego rules are in WA but a 302 won't pass ADR 79/00 or 79/01 for emmissions. I'd check with your engineer exactly what Ford motor you can use for your Cobra.

Btw, I wouldn't pay too much attention to these Chev/Darksiders. Classic Revivals should be renamed Darksiders I think. They're too quick to compare a 302 to a 350 LS1. They should compare apples with apples. If you can get a 302 stroke it to 347. When Tickford did this (was actually a 342 ci) they gave those LS1 thingies a run for their money, especially when a T3 TE50 weighed about 100kg more than a HSV. As for the weight a 302/347 it's about 230 pounds compared to about 185 for the chev. Thats about 20kg with Iron heads (chev uses alloy). Replace the Iron Heads with Alloy units and there's most of your 20kg recouped. Now you're really comparing apples with apples but I know what the Darksiders will say next; that all costs $$$$. True, but you'll get it back if you ever need to sell. Chev Cobras usually don't hold their value as well as Ford examples (however, this may change with the amount of LS1's now being used - who knows?). Some people can easily overlook that alloy is not as strong as Iron. If you took a close look at a LS1 block and compared it to a 302, a 302 is much smaller, especially around the caps. To get the same strength you need close to twice the amount of metal.

Can't wait to finish my car and line her up against some of these Darksiders!

[Philm]

I absolute enjoy the fact that my car is relatively new and has NSW rego with a ford 5 ltr.

It was one of those things you did not question, a cobra has to have a ford engine!!!!!!

However after a rebuild of the 5ltr it is a bugger of an engine, you can get them to make good power but it is at a much higher $ per HP compared to an LSI, and parts are very limited.

To do it over I would go for the LS1 it is a perfect fit for a cobra, but really you dont have a choice in NSW.

Sorry Henry but our day will come.

Phil

[Wally68]

Thats a wicked looking motor you have there Phil.

As far as WA regs go I think (correct me if Im wrong Bobby) we can use any efi motor from 97 on,so that leaves 302 from an AU, the LS1 and lexus 4.6.

atleast we have a more options than NSW I suppose.

I kind of go along with the idia that a cobra should have a ford donk in it, mainly for resale (which I don't plan on doing), but I also want BANG for Buck, the LS1 is starting to look like a good thing.


Thanks for the info
Dave

[400TT]

Dave, it's going to come down to personal preference...

I can see two main advantages of the Ford: simply it's a Ford, it's what people expect the car to have and it could be your last chance for you to build a Cobra with a 302 windsor. No idea with resale, won't know about resale difference until there are enough LS1 engined Cobra's around and for sale. In the US it would make a difference, but doubt it will here, we are just less traditional...

LS1 is great bang for buck, responds well to tweaking, matched with a T56 and you have a sweet combo for a Cobra. They just ooze horsepower.

Lexus V8 is fantastic bang for buck. We fitted a cheap high km one to the Harrison. God knows how many km's it has done on the track now, tough as nails. LS1 engines were much more expensive and we were not as sure about reliability with LS1 when doing a lot of track work. Lexus V8 responds very well to tweaking, just sneezing near it is enough for get HP increase.

You will also still have chance to fit Ford 351 windsor as well. US Saleen Mustang engine, they still meet our emmission requirements. They also had a factory supercharged 351 as well.

And the Ford 4.6 modular has some of it's own advantages...especially the supercharged version.

There have never been more choices...

[Beejay]

It all comes down to personal preference.

If I had the option of putting in a reasonably priced Ford engine it would probably be prefered. Having said that, my $2800 LS1 will probably give over 350 Hp at the flywheel with computer and intake mods only. How much would it cost to do this on a Ford 5L?

Definately do not agree about the resale value of an LS1 Cobra in Australia. I think that over time the Classic Revival and Harrison Cobras will be sold at a premium price. How many do you see up for sale?

Just my opinion.

Ben

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

Wally,
Btw, I wouldn't pay too much attention to these Chev/Darksiders. Classic Revivals should be renamed Darksiders I think. They're too quick to compare a 302 to a 350 LS1. They should compare apples with apples. If you can get a 302 stroke it to 347. When Tickford did this (was actually a 342 ci) they gave those LS1 thingies a run for their money, especially when a T3 TE50 weighed about 100kg more than a HSV. As for the weight a 302/347 it's about 230 pounds compared to about 185 for the chev. Thats about 20kg with Iron heads (chev uses alloy). Replace the Iron Heads with Alloy units and there's most of your 20kg recouped. Now you're really comparing apples with apples but I know what the Darksiders will say next; that all costs $$$$. True, but you'll get it back if you ever need to sell. Chev Cobras usually don't hold their value as well as Ford examples (however, this may change with the amount of LS1's now being used - who knows?). Some people can easily overlook that alloy is not as strong as Iron. If you took a close look at a LS1 block and compared it to a 302, a 302 is much smaller, especially around the caps. To get the same strength you need close to twice the amount of metal.

Can't wait to finish my car and line her up against some of these Darksiders!

Better check your maths there Al, it's 185KG versus 230KG. Even if changing to alloy heads will probably saves you 15 or 20KG you're still carrying 30KG extra.

Yep the 347 does give the LS1 a run for it's money. I should know I've got the Tickford 347 equipped Pursuit 250. However that motor as it sits in the ute is at the limits of it's tuning without major mechanical changes. After talking to a few tuners they reckon you cant get much more out of them by changing the factory tune. It's idles rough and only runs on premium as it is (economy is a bit ordinary too).

With a reflash of the ecu on a stock LS1 you can make 300KW at the crank no trouble. Guys are getting 250KW at the rear wheels without turning a spanner on the engine. Spend the same money you would have to on the 347 to get to that level and your LS1 would be reliably making over 300 at the rear wheels.

As far as resale, that's yet to be seen. I don't think there has been an LS1 equipped Cobra on the used car market yet in Australia to see what will happen. I believe the engines performance will make a lot more people overlook that it doesn't have a blue oval badge on it. When comparing an Iron Chev motor to an Iron Ford motor there wasn't much differential in performance so you'd go for the Ford to be traditional.

Cheers

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

Better check your maths there Al, it's 185KG versus 230KG. Even if changing to alloy heads will probably saves you 15 or 20KG you're still carrying 30KG extra.

Yep the 347 does give the LS1 a run for it's money. I should know I've got the Tickford 347 equipped Pursuit 250. However that motor as it sits in the ute is at the limits of it's tuning without major mechanical changes. After talking to a few tuners they reckon you cant get much more out of them by changing the factory tune. It's idles rough and only runs on premium as it is (economy is a bit ordinary too).

With a reflash of the ecu on a stock LS1 you can make 300KW at the crank no trouble. Guys are getting 250KW at the rear wheels without turning a spanner on the engine. Spend the same money you would have to on the 347 to get to that level and your LS1 would be reliably making over 300 at the rear wheels.

As far as resale, that's yet to be seen. I don't think there has been an LS1 equipped Cobra on the used car market yet in Australia to see what will happen. I believe the engines performance will make a lot more people overlook that it doesn't have a blue oval badge on it. When comparing an Iron Chev motor to an Iron Ford motor there wasn't much differential in performance so you'd go for the Ford to be traditional.

Cheers

G'day Mike

DOUGH! Must remember pounds doesn't = kilos! Bugga!

I've been doing research into AU Edit for the T3's. Some people had a tune from the factory that was pretty good to begin with, others have had good gains with some bolt-ons such as CAI hand exhaust - up too 225rwkw. A mate of mine, Tommy Easton, knows one of the blokes at Tickford who developed the T3 5.6ltr (btw it's a 342 ci as Ford didn't spend the $$ and oversize the bores by 30 thou). Apparently in early R&D the problem was they were getting too much power from the 5.6, around 300kw. But with the arrival of the Boss around the corner they were asked to tone it down to 250kws. Also the transmissions at the time were only rated to 500nm so there was a warranty issue as well. Tickford wanted to use alloy heads but Ford didn't want to spend the $$ so the GT40P heads had some minor work done to them by Yella Terra. Ford also changed the specs of the motor half way through it's production as well. It originally had a small cam with 1.7 rockers and then switched to a larger cam with 1.6 rockers. The cam also had shorter duration on the exhaust instead of the usual larger split duration to help reduce power and emmissions. The cam was also set at 2 degrees retarded and had 116 deg lobe separation. There is apparently plenty to be gained with the correct cam selection. But the best bit was the intake manifold. It's a gem and will flow some big numbers.

I have no idea why Ford bits are more expensive than Chev. For some that's reason enough to use a LS1 because it's all there from the factory. Frankly it doesn't matter what you use. I grew up on a diet of both Ford and Holden. I too seriously considered a LS1 because I knew I would have to spend $$ on a 302 to get it to perform. But luckily the T3 came along and that was that. I've been in a 347 Cobra that makes 450hp and frankly that was fast enough for me!

[Beejay]

I think there was a green Classic Revival in Qld that got sold this year, asking price was $70 or $80K.

Much cheaper that the Phase III GTHO that just got sold for $400K!

Ben

[Aussie Mike]

Yep, there's plenty of potential in the T3 motor. Mine made 197KW at the treads and it's stock apart from a very quiet cat back exhaust.

I reckon a set of aftermarket alloy heads and a good cam would really wake it up. I believe the T3 manual equipped cars were the first to get the Tremec TR3550. The factory fitted them because the standard T5 wasn't up to snuff behind the bigger motor.

Don't get the wrong impression here, I'm not bashing the Ford. I like both motors but the LS1 just made sense for my Cobra build.

The CR that sold in Queensland was Dave Samsons car. He used to get on here a bit years ago but I haven't heard from him for a while. his car was one of the older generation CR cars before the body shape changed. He was running a supercharged Holden 5.0 motor. He did also some neat stuff on it including fitting ABS.

Cheers

[Gav]

There was one thing I forgot to meantion earlier.
I am yet to hear a healthy windsor or cleavland with a **** sounding exhaust.
The cross over system used on GT40's are awsome.

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

.

Don't get the wrong impression here, I'm not bashing the Ford. I like both motors but the LS1 just made sense for my Cobra build.

No wrong impressions recieved Mike. I never thought anyone was bashing Ford.

At the end of the day it's a replica which gives the builder freedom to express their personality.

There are a few things that I'm doing on my build that I know some people won't like. Eg, LED rear lights, ROH wheels, Honda S2000 seats, Caerbont guages, Lokar shifter, hand brake and door handles etc etc.

[NASSTY]

btw I'm surprised Rebel1 hasn't jumped on and had his usual beer can spray yet?

[Gav]

He's still out buying more beer

[Philm]

Just to dig the whole for myself a bit deeper, the new "Ford" engine i have just put in my car has absolutly no Ford parts in it, there is not even a bolt.

So is it really a Ford????

My opinion on the Resale value comes down to the build quality, the better the build the higher the price. No matter what kit or motor.


Phil

[Tenrocca]

I concur - that "450 kw" harrison that sold for quite a bit has a lexus engine. I think the build quality in that one was of greater importance then the label on the motor.....