SHELBY FEST 07 - Let's talk Classes

[richardferguson]

Those "personalities" Cameron.... would they be the ones who have to cross 2state borders to get to Winton?
Richard

[Cameron Parsons]

Richard,

regardless of the sport you compete in there are those who will always look for ways to be a victim.

Being an organiser is thankless, because when it's a competition, someone will win and someone will lose. And the one's who lose, from time to time, cannot possibly believe that it is by any means but foul play. Heaven forbid they just weren't the fastest/most consistent/prettiest/most original on the day.

The guys who cross two borders, repeatedly, I happen to know quite well (as you know). The guys who cross one border I am getting to know, and I used to live in their state. And the guys who don't cross any boarders, are from my home town (mostly). And I am going to cross oceans.

The point of the earlier note was to try to reduce the pain for Jason and his fellow organisers, not to 'ping' any one group.

Cameron

[REPTYL]

The Sunday plan is to have 4 Motokhanas at the Stock yards.
3 of them will be fastest time wins down to 5th.
And the last will be a knockout shootout same as last year.

I've attach a small part of the 2006 spreadsheet from Winton with the regularity factor added.
The **.**.** are the warm up laps.

So once again:
Trophies down to 10th for the fastest lap, taken from the whole days event.
No classes, fastest car wins.

Trophies down to 10th for the drivers who can lap the most consistant in the afternoon sessions only.
No classes, lowest Reg factor wins.

All placings for both events will be reconised at the presentations, but you can only take a trophy from your highest ranked event.

[Aussie Mike]

Are there any noise limits for either event?

Cheers

[REPTYL]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

Are there any noise limits for either event?

Cheers

Winton does have a limit, but I haven't seen it policed at any Shelby Fest.

The organisers do not impose any limit. That would go against all things 'Shelby'.

[LoBelly]

Good work on coming up with some neat suggestions Jason.

I would like to chat to you about them at the next meeting - if you're available. I also dont want to sound overly negative about change - and in particular your suggested changes - because it is important that we strive for improvement.

Having said that however there are a couple of things that occur to me which make me somewhat equivocal about your suggestions.

And, I should say right now I think I have the best claim the underdog title; As far as I can tell no-one else will be running a carby 289, which will make my car potentially the least advanced at ShelbyFest - consequently I expect the charge of self-interest - which I accept, but in doing so say that it is not only my interests that I'm representing. I think that ultimately the interests of the club/event are paramount and I guess we'll see if anyone agrees with my observations.
...
The prospect of an award based on consistency is very appealing because it offers the prospect of 'anyone' winning and I guess it also makes sense for awards based on absolute merit afterall - if you're the quicker (wo)man shouldn't you get the award?

Consistency of Principle:
However, I dont understand why - if it is commendable that you are fast, and it is commendable that you are consistent, it would be the case that if you are fast and consistent that you could not be awarded for both (in fact maybe the person who has the highest average placing for both could be the 'winner').

Actual Merit:
Maybe the trophy (recognition) cut off point should be set by a nominal top percentage. 10 trophies for 35 contestants does not appear to particularly identify the elite.

Effect:
Having classes means that entrants with similar levels/combinations of equipment have a reasonable prospect of testing themselves against one another, relatively broad bands provide reasonable field sizes and the opportunity for individuals to experiment without having to recapitalize thier car if they wish to be competitive.

While it is true that people come for all sorts of reasons I think the risk of a single class event is that people may decide not to make the effort to just make up the numbers for the top few to continually dominate them.

Practially every form of competition is stratified so that people have an incentive to participate and improve. (btw one of my favorite tournament rules was that once you won a division your were automatically escalated the next year - keeps the trophy hunters moving on).

Other practical matters:
Much is made of the expense of the trophies - while it may please the presenters to hand over large shiny object; for the most part the recipients are happy to do well against their peers no matter the form the recognition takes

There is no law that says that every class must have a 1st -3rd trophy - or that all classes should have equal trophies - or indeed that the award have any physical form at all.


So, my personal preference would be to retain sensible classes and adjust the awards to a level that reflected the amount of competition, thats not to say that it has to be the whole event - and its just my preference.

No matter what is decided I'll be there.

For those of you with questions about winton try
http://www.wintonraceway.com.au/
(has FAQ section)

LoBelly

[Philm]

Please don't jump on me here, this is only a discussion and I assumed Jason is asking for feedback.

While I like Jasons proposal, Lobelly has made a good point about the fastest lap format.

The holy grail in any competition would be that every competitor has a chance to win. Jasons proposal is closer to achieving that.

I know there is an argument about how much of the result is the driver or the car.

I am all for an outright fastest time, say award 1st 2nd and 3rd.

Then secondary to this how about have a "dial in " situation. Almost a define your own class. Nominate your expected fastest time, the closest awarded 1st 2nd and 3rd.
Go quicker and you do not qualify for a trophy or accolade.

Phil

[REPTYL]

I'm taking it all in guys. keep it comming.
I'll have a re-read of lowbelly's tommorrow (when I have a little more time).
All feedback and sugestions are welcomed.

[Cameron Parsons]

Some good dialogue here.

I can follow Lowbelly's thinking and would contribute some thoughts, no conclusions here, but ideas for a simple, clear and fair strata of awards.

For background, like many here, I have raced in many sanctioned events and been subject to class fiddling (that is the art of reading around the regs to gain a perfomance advantage by adding mods that allow you to race in a category where your vehicle can gain a perfomance advantage over the rest of the class), and been guilty of it myself , and I have even been regulated out of a large international event because I tried to performance mod a vehicle to the class spec limit, only to have the spec change the following year. So I do get it.

The moment you stratify by vehicle 'type' in a ICV you are opening the veritable pandora's box. There is no such thing as a manufacturers standard.

Engine size, Induction, Wheel size and Tyre type are the broad strokes. Then there a million 'what if's' that that can nullify the above.

I really like the idea of a competition that makes the above possible categories null and void.

- Regularity does that very well

I also recognise that many of us have set about to purposly build performance monsters that will pass anything but a petrol pump I know I did So a reward for the performance/handling builder is also very attractive to a large field.

Limiting awards to one category or the other without pre-selection, allows more winners and promotes a different level of focus in the regularity event. then providing for a pure handling event for well set up and driven cars. Add in a few 'Cobraesque' awards; Best Sound, Best Off, Peers Choice etc rounds out the awards groups.

So, my vote would be;

Speed and Regularity

in both

Track and Motorkhana

Cameron

[Philm]

I may not have been very clear with my last post.

I am all for both the speed and regularity event,

I was adding to the mornings speed event, instead of 10 placings for out right fastest, I suggest 3 for out right speed and 3 for closest to "dial in" speed.

Then the 10 placings for the regualrity event.

Phil

[Ralph_C]

I like the concept of using consistency - gives everyone a chance, and reduces the arguments about classes, and "dial-in" may be a good approach, but.... (there's always a but), it does not appear to reward improvement over the day, which is what many are actually trying to achieve (better your own best time).

Is there a way to determine the baseline plus an improvement factor (yet still stop people from setting a slow time in the morning then just turn it up during the afternoon)???

[REPTYL]

Originally Posted by Ralph_C

Is there a way to determine the baseline plus an improvement factor (yet still stop people from setting a slow time in the morning then just turn it up during the afternoon)???

I guess you could run the regularity event in the morning.
And award the driver whos has the best gap between the morning average and their afternoon fastest.

[REPTYL]

I'm leaning on running classes for the fastest lap the same as last year.
But still include the reg event.
Best of both worlds and it may smooth us in to the bigger change for next year.

[LoBelly]

yay,

might I suggest that (like the Olympics) there be set levels of participants before trophys are awarded

In order to make the classes meaningful and to limit exposure to too many trophies can I suggest a maximum trophy rate of 20class with a three trophy max

e.g.
so 5-9 competitors = 1st place only
10-14 competitors = 1st + 2nd place trophies
15+ competitors = up to 3rd place

[REPTYL]

Lttle hard to work the ratios prior to the event.
I have to order the trophies next month.
In the past entrants seem to leave it to the last week before entering.

I'm thinking:
<=3 1st
3-6 1st 2nd
>=6 1st 2nd 3rd
I know it sound generous.
But we have spoilt our competitors in the past.
May need to wean them off the trophies.

[Rebel1]

Ermmm dare I say you could save yaself a whole lotta trouble Jason.

Just post all trophies up here before the event, They're coming up anyways.

[Philm]

Rebel1,
they sound like fighting words to me


How many QLDs are making the trip this year?


Phil

[Rebel1]

Dunno Phil ....none I think,

Jason is gonna send the trophies up to save us the drive down

Seriously mate...I don't know.

[Beejay]

Craig W has been quiet lately - it must be time for that GT40 to come out and play!!

Ben

[400TT]

Originally Posted by Beejay

Craig W has been quiet lately - it must be time for that GT40 to come out and play!!

Ben

Yeah, I wish.

Haven't seen a lot of interest from QLD this year in Shelby Fest. The cost and distance is a real killer. We gave it a shot last year, but it's hard to justify driving that far for events when we can basically race all we want up here.

We have been tossing around the idea of having an event up here, we even asked about alternating Shelby Fest between VIC & QLD each year. The Club Track day on the 11th Feb is being run as a way of seeing how much interest we get from QLD members. If we ran an event up here, it would initially be ran as a once off and we would pull out all stops. We have some unique opportunities up here that we could incorporate.

Problem is that Shelby Fest is a fantastic event and Tony, Jason and the gang have really set the bar high.


Now onto trophies. I reckon you have to keep classes, if you want less, how about this.

How about these classes for sprints:

Cobra Street Tyres
Cobra Race Tyres (same as nats, even DOT race tyres included)
Ladies (depending on numbers, only have 1st place)
GT40 (only have first place) *combine with Mustang class if you don't get enough entries.
Mustang (only have first place)

Motorkhana classes:
Male
Female

I love the idea of regulatory points/competition. Jason, please try to keep this. But make sure the fastest cars can still also win for regulatory. Now that would be the ultimate hat trick.

In QLD we just all race against each other, no classes. Street Cars, Race Cars, GT40's etc, all in together. Isn't it all about improving your times/skill and having a great time doing it.