Engine Confusion

[Philm]

Thanks Les,
I was hoping I was not to far out.

But my point, 268KW is not 310RWKW.

Phil

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by Philm

I appreciate and have a respect for the LS series engines and would as I have said many times before concider the LS7 for a cobra if I was to build one now.

There seams to be a double standard when it comes to the adr complience of the LS engines. When ever I hear the power being quoted there is always the tag of with a cam change and an ecu tweak.

This change would therefore make the engine illegal and as Les has stated may cause issues with insurance and registration.

To use the argument that they are ADR complient and then say ,"L76+ cam=approximately 310 kw at the wheels" is rediculously hipocritical.

So lets call a spade a spade, a "standard" LS2 or L98 is a 220KW engine at the fly wheel, or something like that.

Just like a windsor to get more power means modifications and $$$$$$$.


Phil

I am happy to help you with the power upgrade by fitting a modified LS serioes engine Phil, ie not compliance certified motor (just like your current one)

Come on Phil, you too can join us on the other side.

[Philm]

David,
my starter motor is fine, thanks

Phil

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Philm

Thanks Les, I was hoping I was not to far out.

But my point, 268KW is not 310RWKW.

Phil

Phil, you are as bad as my first wife in reporting the size of things.

[400TT]

Phil, LS7...yeah baby. That's enough engine to make most people consider the darkside and best of all it's fully compliant with 500+HP, even for you NSW chaps.

Merv, I've changed my mind, go the LS7. Just a tad more money.

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...ls7/index.html

As an aside, I'm actually going with an LS7 in my next car.

[WKB]

Originally Posted by Rebel1

Now now uncle Phil.....let's not underestimate .....make that 268Kw at 5300rpm.

See here: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en..._L76_G8_GT.pdf

Les,
After reading the latest Wheels magazine you got to wonder if you can trust these figures. They dyoned a FG Falcon GT and a HSV 6.2ltr Commodore. The result showed that although the Commodore had more kilowatts on paper than the Falcon, on the dyno the Commodore was a long way behind the Falcon.

Merv,
In hindsight I think that I would have used a 302w. Nothing wrong with the Toyota motor, but as Phil said they have the best exhaust note of any V8.

If your chassis was made for the chev motor it will not be wide enough for 4.6ltr quad cam

Warren

[Merv and Sharon]

What a fantastic range of advice and information and I am sorry for opening up the 'political" dimensions on this issue! Price is not really a big issue for me now. I just want something that I am happy with. I have had many vintage cars and have never modified (well there were some heads and cams...) them in any visible way. I am kind of sympathetic for "heritage" reasons towards the 302 and they do seem to sound different (mostly down to particular exhaust systems probably). I really appreciate the values of the L76/LS2 and its modern parameters and also its compliance ease. I suspect that it is more difficult to set up.
A remaining few Q's:

(1) Is the injected 302 still compliant (e.g., a US import?).
(2) Also, how tough is it to change the engine mount setup that I have already there from Warwick Harrison to suit a 302?
(3) Is a well-sourced 302 likely to be ready to go, or is it necessary to do a substantial re-build (I know that one might do that eventually), other than renewing all the clutch components?
(4) Is the gearbox with it a robust one - decent synchros and reasonable shift action?
(5) Last with the Harrison 4.3 rear end is the standard 302 'box going to be out of synch?

Apols for all the questions and the old ground for many of you, but this really helps!

Merv

[Philm]

Merv,
I can offer my opinion on a couple.

3) The 302 is a tough engine, you really have to abuse it for it to go bang in a standard form. If it has good compression I would not touch it.

4) The World class or mustang T5s are the best 5 speed for medium powered engines, I found the shifts to be beautiful, the only troble is when you try and feed more power they break.

5) I would go a 3.45 for the street, maybe a 3.7. as I think the t5 5th is .82 ratio which would be 5th in your 6 speed.

Phil

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by Philm

To use the argument that they are ADR complient and then say ,"L76+ cam=approximately 310 kw at the wheels" is rediculously hipocritical.

Took our cranky pills this morning Phil?

If you took the time to read my post fully, you would see I was drawing comparisions between the mods required on the windsor to get 240 odd RWKW, and to get 310 on the L76. Either mod would make both engines non ADR compliant (i dont think my post even referred to ADR compliance).

A ridiculous comment from you there - go to the mirror and take a good hard look at yourself.

[400TT]

A remaining few Q's:

(1) Is the injected 302 still compliant (e.g., a US import?).
Yes
(2) Also, how tough is it to change the engine mount setup that I have already there from Warwick Harrison to suit a 302?
Would have to ask Warwick, as it will be harder now the body has been fitted.
(3) Is a well-sourced 302 likely to be ready to go, or is it necessary to do a substantial re-build (I know that one might do that eventually), other than renewing all the clutch components?
They seem to have a great longevity, if you get a good one, it will last you well.
(4) Is the gearbox with it a robust one - decent synchros and reasonable shift action?
T5 is a great gearbox to drive, not as strong as most though, so will only handle hard abuse from a mild 302w engine
(5) Last with the Harrison 4.3 rear end is the standard 302 'box going to be out of synch?
If you decide you don't like it, you can always change to taller 3.7 gears. Most Harrison owners with 302w & T5, run 4.3 gears and are happy. WKB can show the way to 3.7 upgrade if you decide to.

[/quote]

[400TT]

Phil, I thought I all the Mustang T5's(World Series) boxes had .68 5th gear. Ours certainly did.

Just watch Merv, there are quite a few lesser variations of T5 gearboxes around. So if you are going with USA Mustang HO, make sure you buy it with gearbox attached to make sure you get the real deal T5.

Merv, let me know if you go HO as I'll find the details of the front cut. It's local and listed at $2500, which I'm sure can be bargained with. Best of all, it's a front cut, so you can test run the engine. It's from a dealer, so should also have warranty.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by WKB

Les,
After reading the latest Wheels magazine you got to wonder if you can trust these figures. They dyoned a FG Falcon GT and a HSV 6.2ltr Commodore. The result showed that although the Commodore had more kilowatts on paper than the Falcon, on the dyno the Commodore was a long way behind the Falcon. Warren

That's why GM started testing engines using an international standard. ie. SAE J1349.

Having said that....with cars presented for motor mag tests one does not know who tuned and when.

We know that with the Commodore a huge amount of power can be attained from a aftermarket tune. The GM tune has more to do with economy and compliance than performance.

The Falcon GT could have had an aftermarket tune and the HSV a standard factory tune.

Frankly Warren, I wouldn't even consider putting the latest Falcon GT engine into a cobra but that is only my opinion.

[stephen low]

Merv

You can only use an injected engine for compliancy here to meet emissions standards, but I'm not up with how far back you can go with a US sourced 302 and still meet Australian emissions specs. One for your engineer to answer.

Looked at Paul's Harrison on Sunday and you may be able to fit the XY? style 302 engine mounts over the supports, you need dimensions I guess but importantly I have no appreciation where the current mounts will position the 302 block in your engine bay. This might be the critical parameter and I'll leave to the better informed.

A local sourced 5L with the matching bits would be a start and comply option but that's the same for the GM side too.

The T5 WC boxes are pretty robust with modern shift feel and pattern. Drag racing might test the box out eventually but normal use will see long life. The WC variant was behind the 347 stroker but the earlier 5L used a standard T5 up to and including the 200kW engine I believe. Internal difference was use of tapered bearings in the WC over standard bearing sets.

Mating to the diff just needs the right flange at the back end of your tailshaft I presume, so this is a no brainer too. (Sorry missed the ratio hint, ignore this one!! - DoH)

Cheers

[400TT]

Merv, the early to mid 90 Mustang's are the best. As they got later, there were improvements, even the gearboxes got slightly stronger.

No problems complying a USA Mustang engine from 1990 onwards. You can even go into the 80's if you like, but I don't see them as being as good an option as the later models.

[sambo]

Merv, I have an idea. Shove an L98 into the car, relocate the coilpacks to the firewall, buy a set of aftermarket rocker covers and get a Ford logo etched across them.

[spookypt]

OR............O what a feeling TOYOTA! Lighter cheaper stronger.............. If it has a V and an 8 behind it I don't really care to be honest! But I'm bias of course...

Did anyone mention a hair dryer?????

[Philm]

Craig,
yep .68 is correct, would stil look at 3.45 or 3.7s for a diff ratio for a street car.

Phil

[Philm]

HI Andrew,
Sorry I should have noticed that you changed your signature.

I had a good look in the mirror, thanks for that advice.

Thanks for highlighting my spelling mistakes, must be tough being so smart.

I will skulk off now like a Sale of the Centry Contestant that only lasted one night

But you are right, they are good value to 310KW if you want more that is a different story.

Phil

[Aussie Mike]

I've enjoyed watching this thread develop. Now I'll throw my 2c in.

I like Fords and have owned a few (5 so far). I've also owned Holdens, Suzukis, Renault, Mazda, Land Rover, VW, Jaguar. I try to judge each car on it's own merits (some of them were good some were real turds).

I chose to go the LS1 at a time when I could have used a Windsor motor with no rego issues. My choice was based on engineering and design rather than brand loyalty.

Some of the things I liked about the LS series versus the traditional choices were all aloy constuction, Un-bustable 6 bolt mains in a deep skirted block (I've never read of anyone breaking a stock crank), All O ring gaskets throughout, compact lightweight and powerful straight out of the crate.

Aftermarket support and development going forward is great and the tuneability of the factory ECU is a real bonus.

Stock they aren't good looking but once you peel the layers off this onion there's a very pretty engine underneath.

As far as the HP is conerned, any of the motor choices listed will make more power than you know what to do with. My mild LS1 is frighteningly fast. I think we get a bit carried away looking for bragging rights and dyno numbers. Truth be told 400HP in one of these cars is a real handful in a street Cobra. Chase more power and you should set up an acount with the underwear department of your local target store.

For a more track focused car you could probably use more power but in all honesty I think the money would be better spent on getting the handling and brakes sorted. As an example John White at the last few Cobra Nationals was kicking everyones butt with a stock Lexus V8 in a very well set up chassis.

I had all sorts of dreams of superchargers and turbos big cubes and whatnot but ended up with a simple naturally aspirated reasonably stock motor. I've got a few goodies to go in it but most are aimed at reliability under stress rather than making power. The change of manifold and 4 barel T/B was a cosmetic choice as I wanted a more traditional look. I don't think it adds much power, It may even cost a few HP. The exception to all this is the cam I plan to install which will wake it up a bit and make all the right noises.



Cheers

[sambo]

Mike, that picture I think shows what I meant by relocating the coilpacks, albeit with the correct signature on the rocker covers. If so, where did you source those bits? Definitely high on my to do list after rego.