Engine Confusion

[Merv and Sharon]

I am building a Harrison and have always been going to get the L76 motor. Seemed to be a new, modern, clean and very powerful motor and reasonably priced.

However (big "however"), I am suddenly having second thoughts just as I am about to order.

I am thinking that the Ford 302 is a "great" motor, has the right heritage, is still compliant with registration authorities and is much simpler to fit. I hear that it also costs less, not a great issue perhaps but a notable one. I know that the 302 is less powerful but I am not planning to race and how much power is enough? The 302's I have seen seem to have plenty of what is needed.

So I was wondering have I really lost the plot and should I go ahead with the L76 or get a good 302 with fuel injection, etc? My sub-question in relation to the latter choice is where does one get "good" reliable and complete 302's with gearbox and injectors, etc? Do you need to re-build them or they pretty much useable out of the box? How much should one expect to pay?

Sorry for opening old issues, but this is personal!

Merv

[richardferguson]

A ray a light breaks through to the darkside.
Do it. It's a Ford.

[Philm]

Merv,
I hear you loud and clear.

I have a 302 based windsor in my cobra and love it.

I think it comes down to personal choice, yes the the LS series engines may make big unopened power, well only slightly opened and are dirt cheap if you don't add up the costs to mod them to run in your car.

A stock 302 out of 94 model mustang would only cost a few 1000, check with some of the American importers.
This is how I built my car at first with a complete engine gearbox for $5k. The engine was great competed in 3 nationals with it and a Shelby Fest. I managed a 1.50 arround Winton.

The best thing about the Windsor is that they can make good power with the unlimited range of aftermarket parts. When the need arrises for more power you can stroke it to a 347 and that is when things get exciting.



The best thing about a windsor is the sound, the best exhaust note in a V8 IMO.

The orginals had a ford small block, it is the traditional choice.

Good luck with your choice, the darkside will come back with all the usual crap, but in the end they don't get it. Not everyone has style.

Phil

[stephen low]

Merv

Don't be confused, there is only one true engine but I'm guessing a lot of the blokes have gone dark side because of "the Force" (read legislation - not Darth). Where if the reasonable choice had been available they may have stayed with the more traditional donor source. By reasonable I also mean the more easily fitted smaller Windsor over the newer modular Boss.

Think back to what the Ford V8 supercars could do with the mighty Windsor, so you can get the neddies from the motor if you have the desire.

Bang for your buck, I tend to agree the Chebby beer cans seem to offer it, but staying with the expected heritage, then a Ford engine it can only be!

As to choice you need to hit an AU series sourced engine. The last of the AU series was the stroker variant, not sure if they were known as AUIII or TE50, as I've seen AUIII's advertised with the 220kW motors. But the strokers are very nice 347ci if you can find one but they are in demand and are holding price.

Not sure whether the whole range would be acceptable for compliance, the AU started in 2000 I believe, but you should be able to get a cheaper early motor for starters. You may even be able to regress further as Craig suggests but you need your engineer's advice on this!

For example on ebay at present is a half cut 2001 series ute with manual T5 gearbox and supporting bits for $5,500, a 200kW tickford motor only with all the bits for $2,500 and a Ford racing crate motor for $6K needing the EFI but brand new. Not sure what's on the ford forum and of course the wreckers so there are numerous sources.

I'm now forced into a part rebuild of my 220kW and I am reliably told that a good set of aftermarket heads and mild cam will let my 5L - 302 achieve 220 -240 kW at the rear wheels. To me that's a damn good start for the uninitiated.

At the end of the day its your car your choice but lean the way you know you will be comfortable in the long haul and then you wont regret the choice.

Happy hunting!

[sambo]

Merv, I don't know much about the 302, suffice to say it was never released on any of Shelby's Cobra variants as far as I know. I guess the badge is the same but that would be about the only thing on a Harrison.

How is a 302 easier to fit? Eg, have you considered the mods required to adapt the L76 engine mount pickups? Also you've got the widened T56 tunnel - so you'd be giving up valuable cockpit space for no reason.

If it's a money decision then I'm sure you can fit a used 302 for less than an L76. Money aside, I'd be thinking ease of build, aftermarket options and performance. I don't buy into the Ford/GM argument with replicas because they're not Cobras... they're just hotrods with Cobra shaped bodies.

Having said all that, the engine is the heart and sole of these cars and logic needn't apply. I say go with your gut feeling.

[stephen low]

I love the logic in Paul's line.

they're just hotrods with Cobra shaped bodies.

I think we need to use this approach when we start talking with the ADR Authorities about calming our build requirements.

Of course our hotrod marque only came out in one shape so that makes it easier for the Government knobs to follow the logic - no?

Cheers

[400TT]

Merv, this is a decision you are going to have to make yourself. Considering the style of Cobra you want to build, I would go with Ford 302w. Not too many Cobra builders have the choice of 302w, so consider yourself lucky that you have a choice.

L76:
The L76 just produces a lot more HP in standard form, it's easier to tweak to get more HP by just simple ECU programming. And if you start changing cams etc, you get even more HP. The Chev engines just have so much HP potential.

The L76 is also a lighter due to the alloy block & heads and much more compact unit due to how snugly the accessories & pullies sit against the block.

If you want to save some money, just look for a 2nd hand engine & box. Or save even more money, go for an earlier engine. You can legally fit the earliest of LS1 engines if you like.

Ford 302w:
Definitely the traditional way to go in a Cobra in Australia. To be honest they produce enough HP with mild changes to make for an enjoyable Cobra. Come standard with Borg Warner T5 gearbox which is a nice gearbox to live with.

You have a choice of imported Mustang HO engines or local AU Falcon engines.

Just recently I've seen mid 90's Mustang HO T5 front cut local to us with 100,000k's for $2500. You can find them cheaper or more expensive, the local 302w engines with gearbox are about the same price in my experience.

My brother went for a local engine, 2002 AUIII Tickford. Nice engine. 220kw standard, hand built engine, this one was by Steve Berry, has oil cooler, roller rockers etc all standard. The AUIII have the extra hassle of Smartshield security which needs to be incorporated/bypassed/removed.

I expect you have seen Mike Verners aftermarket injection on his 302w. Classic carby looking injection, it's well priced and got that clean retro look, that's the way I would go down the track after rego.

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by Philm

Merv,

I have a 302 based windsor in my cobra and love it.

Phil

Its only slightly more 302 windsor then my L76 is......


Seriously, if you can still do it I would go for it.

Things to consider........I dont thing the 302 with the stock manifold is any prettier then a LS engine. Dont be put off by thinking the L76 is an expensive option - installation isnt that difficult, as there is a wealth of knowledge out there on fittting these as conversion engines. The parts can add up, but it is possible to source most parts from places cheaper then the local holden dealer. The exhaust note on the windsor is great, but thats not to say a LS through sidepipes doesnt sound good too. Out of the box i think with the LS you are getting a superior engine to the windsor. Is it being a ford that important to you? Go the L98 over the L76 if you can. The L98 doesnt have the DOD rubbish that isnt used anyway. Economy - the LS in a light weight car is a pretty economical beast for regular driving - not sure how much better then the windsor it would be or how much a factor that is for you regardless. Resale - I dont think the LS in a cobra affects resale as much as it would in the US, but it might be something to consider. Not many LS cobra sales that Im aware of - might be saying something......

[alffie]

Have you thought about the 4.6 quad cam ford? If your not chasing easy power and not gonna be into racing competively go with a ford engine. 351 windsors out of the F100 are cheap in the states, and with the dollar at 96 it even better.

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by stephen low

Merv


I'm now forced into a part rebuild of my 220kW and I am reliably told that a good set of aftermarket heads and mild cam will let my 5L - 302 achieve 220 -240 kW at the rear wheels. To me that's a damn good start for the uninitiated.

more to consider.......L76+Cam = approx 310kw at the wheels.

[400TT]

Merv can still go 351w as well if he wants with our emissions. But it's going to be much more expensive to find a compliant USA 351w engine than a 302w.

Yes, the modular 4.6lt as well.

Merv, your choices are virtually endless...

[Rebel1]

Merv, For what it's worth.

I totally agree with the ford heritage argument. Cobras should, if at all possible, have a ford. However, the 5 Ltr windsor with it's blu$$y ugly intake has no more right under the hood of a cobra than any other engine. It would be different if we were allowed a 4/8 barrel throttle bodies sitting on a high rise manifold that imitated the older carby windsors. That would be different because we would have heritage and looks....but we are not allowed.

Whats the use of heritage if it doesn't look like heritage?.

To me, that issue left me with the performance and compliance questions only and in that regard you just can't beat the chev/holden engines....all alloy, look better than a 5ltr windsor, huge power, no compliance issues, and relatively low cost. The L76 with a cam is a 300+rwkw beast with impeccable manners on the street.

This compliance issue is a larger concern than many recognize. We now see authorities seeking out modified vehicles and this will only increase. We also see insurance companies using modifications as a means of avoiding claims.

I want to drive my cobra at any time, to any place, without the fear of running across a roadside inspection.

But to repeat....If the authorities would accept a 4/8 barrel injected windsor/cleveland then there would be no question...it would be a ford.

Hope that helps.

[C0braed]

Go with the 302 and fit the mass-flo efi system

[Danr55]

An old addage among Cobra owners goes something like, "There is no replacement for displacement". That said, with the price of gas these days, maybe there is. Go with whatever you want. If you don't you'll always wish you did.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by C0braed

Go with the 302 and fit the mass-flo efi system

Exactly my argument COBraed...that's the sort of intake I'm referring to.

The mass-flo is great and was an option I investigated.

Sadly, not acceptable...even tho it uses a ford ECU.

Ohhhh...and....welcome to the nut farm COBraed.

[Rebel1]

I should clarify my comment about the non-acceptability of the mass-flo system.

I had communicated with mass-flo and had established the emissions to be within Qld. requirements.

In further discussion with Qld Dept of Trans they said they would accept the mass-flo only if I could prove the emissions by sending the engine to a certified emission test center.

Sadly, no emission test centers in Queensland.

[Philm]

I appreciate and have a respect for the LS series engines and would as I have said many times before concider the LS7 for a cobra if I was to build one now.

There seams to be a double standard when it comes to the adr complience of the LS engines. When ever I hear the power being quoted there is always the tag of with a cam change and an ecu tweak.

This change would therefore make the engine illegal and as Les has stated may cause issues with insurance and registration.

To use the argument that they are ADR complient and then say ,"L76+ cam=approximately 310 kw at the wheels" is rediculously hipocritical.

So lets call a spade a spade, a "standard" LS2 or L98 is a 220KW engine at the fly wheel, or something like that.

Just like a windsor to get more power means modifications and $$$$$$$.


Phil

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by richardferguson

A ray a light breaks through to the darkside.
Do it. It's a Ford.

It is not a Ford, it is an AC.

It is well documented that even Shelby wanted to fit the chevy (was his first choice) but they knocked him back.



That should get some people excited.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Philm

So lets call a spade a spade, a "standard" LS2 or L98 is a 220KW engine at the fly wheel, or something like that. Phil

Now now uncle Phil.....let's not underestimate .....make that 268Kw at 5300rpm.

See here: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en..._L76_G8_GT.pdf

[richardferguson]

Originally Posted by boxhead

It is not a Ford, it is an AC.

It is well documented that even Shelby wanted to fit the chevy (was his first choice) but they knocked him back.



That should get some people excited.

It's a Ford motor