Engine Work or Super Charger Options

[Philm]

Thats another one in class 3.



Phil

[TUF-427]

Hi Phil I think theirs a pic in the last snaketales you can see the 8 socks if you look carefully.....Will take a few of it on the stand before I fit it back in..
Yes have decided to go the stroked route,
the old 302 was a bit tired internally and I wasnt sure how long the stock 5/16 rod bolts would last!
Yeah I recon class 3 is going to be tough this year but I think windsor power will prevail over the plastic cover brigade..

Peter..

[Philm]

Pete,
I am looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.

I think it was a bad decision to stroke it.

The last thing you needed was more power.

Class 3 is going to be awesome, I recon you would have to do better than a 1:10:50 to be in the top 10 in the class.

Yeah there seams to be a lot of talk from the plastic cover brigade, we might have a few more in class 3 this year, but it is obvious that the quickest cars are the ford small blocks.

I cannot wait for the nationals, with The Almighty John White hopefully running his GT40, it opens up the King Cobra contest.

I put $50 on you Pete for King Cobra.

Phil

[TUF-427]

Phil thanks for the vote of confidence,
but theirs some serious competition this year from Qld let alone from all the other states!
Sneaky John may just turn up in the cobra yet also.......
The throttlebodys do look awesome,
its a DC+O 45mm setup that Dru originally had fitted to the Harrison Daytona.
They made good topend HP on the 302 but gave up a lot of midrange torque over the GT40 long runner intake I was using,
its taken me most of the year to get used to the different power delivery on the track.
So I guess the stroker should make up for the shortage of midrange torque!,
and will suit the better breathing shorter runner t/bodys..

Peter..

[TUF-427]

Found a couple of pics,bit of a plumbers nightmare...

[Philm]

Looking Good Pete,
That is the same set up that I have, they work really well.

Who ever wired up that manifold needs a pat on the back.

The trumpets look a little short, could be the photo angle, mine are 100mm from where they attach to the throttle body. Owen at DC&O has these in different sizes, I had to replace a few when builing the air box.

Is there anything I can do to help John finish the GT40,

The plumbing is where I spent the most time on my engine bay, there is a lot going on and no matter what you do it looks busy.

So you haven't run with the stroker yet? I am sure your mid range torque issues will not be a problem.

I am a fan of the 8 throttle body and nothing looks more horny that a small block windsor dressup up like yours.

See you soon.

Phil

[Rob. Smith]

I've read a couple of books regarding supercharging and as long as you don't go too extreme a blower will work well on a stock engine with out mods. Obviously new bits will make the engine stronger. A Centrifugal style blower will give you the Oomph you're looking for. Turbos are too cruel on engines. They are awsome for acceleration though. The issue with computers is another story. I can't help you there.
The two books were. . .both SA design, Street Supercharging by Pat Ganahl & How to build Super Charged and Turbocharged Small Block Fords by Bob McClurg.

[Beejay]

Pete, your car has always been well set up and well presented. I hate to think what you will do with more power!

Are the axles going to last?

Ben

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by TUF-427

Peter if yours is a MAF equipped engine either Usa or Australian originally it will tune itself to mods within reason.
Heads ,cam, intake,throttlebody,injectors, is the usual road travelled for normally aspirated 302s,with numbers around 300 rwhp attainable without too many bad manners.
I have all sorts of performance Efi parts lying around now I have gone to 8 tbodys if your interested..

This is partially true from my understanding.

Check out these links to Ford Forums:
Part 1 EEC-V
http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=167

Part 2 EEC-V
http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=168

Part 3 EEC-V
http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=172

Part 4 EEC-V
http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=173

These four threads detail how the EEC-V works.

The EEC-V will adjust on part throttle (Closed Loop) for mods but reverts to open loop at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) which is fixed map. So if the mods aren't too wild then the computer will adapt at idle and part throttle but not full throttle as that mapping is fixed. WOT would need to be retuned/reflashed. One advantage of factory EFI is it's ability to learn as engine components wear out. This is why mild mods won't affect the EEC-V too much as it relearns idle and part throttle fueling to return the ratio back to 14.7:1. The problems start when the mods get too much for the engine to cope. This will skew the short term and long term fuel trim maps which starts to throw up odd numbers which is out of the scope of the EEC-V to handle properly as the adaptive programming is only designed for engine components, such as injectors etc, wearing out, not wholesale changes to the engine set up. It's at this point you'll need to get the EEC-V reflashed or go aftermarket such as Motec or Autronic or similar. The one advantage GM does have over Ford is it's ability to be reflashed as the GM stuff is easier to mod than Ford. Add to that the amount of GM tuners who do actually tune properly as apposed to the Ford boys, some of which rely on generic flash tunes from CAPA instead of actually tuning themselves.
If you want to do mods to a EFI Ford you need to factor in if the EEC-V will cope. It's been the experience of people I know that the Ford 'puters don't like mods. The EEC-V wasn't designed to do it. EEC-IV was much more flexible to mods as I understand it and it would cope better than the later EEC-V. It wouldn't surprise me if Ford made the EEC-V harder to accept mods to stop mods done to their vehicles.

The other way is to buy a kit that comes with a flash tune.

The above links will give you a good understanding how the EEC-V works.

There is more to this than just changing heads and cam and expecting everything will work just like it did when it was stock.

Btw, very cool engine bay TUF 427

Cheers

[PCC]

Well, thanks all for the advice - very much appreciated.

Consensus is that the old EFI Fairlane may not be the best starting point for significant improvements.

I could easily spend similar money on a replacement engine than on what could turn out like open heart surgery on the NC!!!

As Al and Sideshow rightly points out the major problem I have is with the Engine Management System, which I understand is rather inflexible.

I think I will powerchip the NC and see if that provides a 15% power gain the manufacturers infer.

Pete H - Awesome Engine Bay - Looks the business (PM me what EFI parts you have available).

Sppok - Yes a bloody lot of hours (Have you not seen the infrastructure works going on in SE QLD - I'm responsible for it all

[PCC]

Spook,

I prefer Sppok

[Cameron Parsons]

Pete,

nice work, if we can get you, Phil and I to drag down the straight, the induction howl should be amazing. Class 3 is looking rather busy Maybe I'll unstroke to a 289 and go cruising

Looking forward to seeing you all again

Cameron

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by Cameron Parsons

Class 3 is looking rather busy Maybe I'll unstroke to a 289 and go cruising

I can hear the howls of protest from the Class 2 guys already.

[spookypt]

Pete, I have seem quite a degree of infrastructure works.. Mainly due to the traffic chaos..... so lots of time to gawk!~

Must be time we see you at a BREAKY HEY????

SPOOKYPT

[PCC]

Brecky.

Hmmmmmm.......

You never know - I have been once this year or was it last year

Definitely down for the Indy - We have 2 nights at the Mirage so pretty close to northern end of the track.

Just got to sort out those corporate tickets, but as I'm working with the Company who built the Mackintosh Island Bridge that shouldn't be too difficult.

I got offered a job working on the Townsville Street Circuit ready for next year, but turned it down for an automated toll gantry job in Brisbane

The Sheene No 2 is looking the business!

[TUF-427]

theirs just too many Petes in this thread im not 100% sure whos talking to who anymore!!!

Who ever wired up that manifold needs a pat on the back.

The trumpets look a little short,

Phil I did the wiring,
tried to hide as much as possible,now running Autronic SM4 comes with a nice flying lead harness..

Yes trumpets are thew shorter of the two DC&O make 65mm I think,would prefer the 100s but would put them too close to the bonnet for the filters ,at the moment just running socks,yet to do cold air...

Are the axles going to last?

Hopefully Yes Ben 31 spline Mosers doing the job...

There is more to this than just changing heads and cam and expecting everything will work just like it did when it was stock.

Good info on the workings of the EEC but not entirely correct for the earlier generation Ecus,
Their not that bad and I was running an EEC4 ecu making 280ish rwhp,
I programmed a chip for it using a J3 (diagnostic port) adaptor which is like a piggyback chip.
It had great manners and I only had to concentrate on timing,injector size and a few other things to get the most out of it,
Proven on the dyno would pull a perfectly flat 13-1 af ratio at wot..

Im pretty sure Nc fairlanes are EEC4 and maybe a few late ones were early smartlock ,both very adaptive to mods.

Ashley Bright is also running a ED smartlock ecu with H,C,I mods without problems and also making good power and no chip at all...for now anyways.....


The wide open throttle table isnt fixed for fuel,
it just specifies a target AF based on load and rpm.
Make it a more efficent airpump with modifications,MAf measures the increased airflow and converts this to load,the tables have plenty of resolution for this...

Long term fuel trims can also be reset and adaptive control can also be disabled,simply pulling the fuse on the ecu before Dyno etc gets it back to the base trim.

But yes by the time ford got to Au and EEC5 they had made the things too complex and can be tempramental,similar to the 95 american mustang ECUs

Their Is a lot to this and dont want to write an essay,

Just my 2 cents worth...

I would not be concerned too much about your ecu Pete,
It will do the job.
Leave the chip till last after mods not before on a stock engine...

You would probably make as much gain by bumping the base timing on yours to 14 or so over the stock 10,makes a difference...
The factory timing curves are pretty soft...


Theirs plenty of 10 second mustangs around with EEC brains..

if we can get you, Phil and I to drag down the straight, the induction howl should be amazing

24 throttlebodys and about 1200 or so horsepower,
now that would be awesome....might actually create a vacuum....

Peter..

[NASSTY]

Thanks for that info TUF427.

You've comfirmed what I've been told about EEC-IV's. They were much more flexible than the latter EEC-V's,from AU1 to AU3 Fords.

I made an assumption that Pete's NC Fairlane was EEC-V as the news isn't as good. The EEC-V is programable, just hard to find someone who knows what they are doing. I have done mods to my AUIII (EEC-V) Tickford motor (came from a T3) and not surprisingly I lost power as a result and fuel economy went out the window as it needed to be tuned which was all part of the plan. Took it to a very reputible and nationally known Ford aftermarket specialist to reflash it and the most they could get out of it was 180rwkw up from a baseline of 160rwkw. From the factory these motors made about 190rwkws. There was bugger all torque.

Rather than continuing to pay idiots to play around on the dyno as I later found out that all they were doing was using CAPA generic tunes instead of actually tuning the car, I bit the bullet and now I'm using Autronic SM4 and have got 230rwkws at 5500rpm (the maximum it was reved on the dyno as it happily pulls to 6300rpm) and 560nms of torque, up from 500nm from the factory.

The plan was to build a very streetable 400 odd hp motor, up from 340 horses from the factory. In the end I got there. All I need now is more power!!!!!

Fuel ecomony is where it should be and keeps improving as I trim up the crusing areas in the mapping.

Everyone else who I know from our club who has modded their EEC-V engines have had to use aftermarket computers after first trying not too.

Anyway I hope this info hasn't confused Pete too much. I'd just suggest, whether EEC-IV or V, you ask lots of questions first.

Cheers

[cameron02]

I had a quick look at the responses you have received so far. As Nassty said, check out Ford Forums. You have to sign up to check out the Windsor engine mod section.

Quite a few people have done what you are intending and it seems to have cost them a lot of $ and some of them seem to have idle problems (partially fixed by drilling a hole in the throttle butterfly). When reading about peoples engine mods look at what they are not saying, people dont like to admitt that they made a poor decision to spend big dollars for an average power increase that runs like **** and nobody can tune it!

I'm sure some people get the EFI windsors to run right but dont rush in. Really do your research.

The AFR 165 heads seem to be popular but you will need bigger cam, intake manifold, throttle body, computer chip (more likely new computer), possibly bigger injectors and fuel pump. Then it still might not run too well. A cheaper option might be to purchase some 2nd hand GT40P heads. Not as good as the AFR's but you can get them a lot cheaper and they will be a big improvement on what you have. You might even be able to get Heads, Cam throttle body etc from one person.

That said. IMO the EFI motors are bastards to modify (especially fords). So the cheapest/least hassle option would probably be to buy the biggest motor you can find that will fit in your engine bay.

After many years of modify engines the cheapest option (for me) has always been.... bigger engine. Dollar for Dollar the bigger engine almost always gives you more power.

That said.....I have an EFI Windsor

[stephen low]

Cam02 your not quite right on the alloy heads. The AFR 165's are akin to the Edelbrock RPM's I'll be using, both heads are not significantly larger in the valves than say the GT40P heads but they do flow better.

This means you can run the standard cam and get slightly better performance, not sure how slightly better this is, but for me it's a stepping stone to something better. And yes that will include an aftermarket ECU to replace my EEC-V!!

This head change step alone is about $2000.

If you went the AFR 185's yes you've seriously large valves needing a different cam blah blah blah and of course the $$$$ to make it happen.

Sounds like a little chip change is a good first start. Any serious mods. do it all at once cause you only want to drag the motor out once if you can help it!!

More food for thought.

Cheers

[Rebel1]

Ermmmmm, Uncle Pete......I've got the solution but it involves 6Ltrs of non Ferris metal.

Why have I the feeling I should not have said that?