Mods to Mustang 302

[NASSTY]

This also looks good on a 302 but I don't know if Mass-flo will be applicable.....

[Merv and Sharon]

Hogster that is a thing of beauty! And Nassty ... I don't know where to start. What monster!

Phil what did you mean: "I have seen Windsors with stock heads ( ported and flowed) " The original iron heads worked or alloy heads? I am thinking this may be a process in stages ...

Merv

Merv

[LoBelly]

Originally Posted by Philm

My opinion only, if you were to spend money on an engine, start from scratch with a complete package from sump to fuel and induction systems. This does not mean all new parts but a carefully designed specification. I have seen Windsors with stock heads ( ported and flowed) perform better than engines with fancy bolt on parts.

Never use a solid roller cam, they allow you to make lots of power but what a pain in the arse.

Phil

Great advice.

My original reply on the upgrade mods assumed you were looking for a bit of pep rather than a full build. (you know what they say about assumptions..)

I was looking at an 'upgrade path' but was advised that I'd end up paying more for less - after doing the numbers it may well work out that way for you too.

Beware of the '...for only $50 more I could get....' because;
a) there are a lot of parts and a lot x $50 is real lot, and;
b) an upgrade in some areas is going to require upgrades in other to realise the benefit.

(think $0 to keep your gearbox vs $3000 for the TKO + clutch, bellhousing maybe diff....you get the picture)

Before you start you have to decide where you want to end up, you seem to be a way along this path.

At the risk of sounding like the poster boy for Keith Craft, I have one of his custom cams and am beyond delighted with the results. I told Tony what I wanted to use the car for and what parts I was using - Tony asked a number of questions made some suggestions and at the end I got the reponse (You have to imagine a Arkansas accent) 'We('ve) got some real nice grinds here that you're going to like'. And when it arrived I did like and then even more when I got to use it

I was very impressed with the attention to detail Tony paid to my requests/requirements dispite the fact that I was a very small customer $ wise and half way 'round the world.

(Dispite what I said earlier about spending a bit more here and there... ) A custom cam is only marginally more expensive than a quality performance product and given the cams central role in determining performance characteristics it's probably worth considering.

One last thing - I had originally intended to assemble the engine myself but somewhere along the line (after abandoning restraint) I concluded that my assembly skills were exceeded by my performance expectations. I was in the fortunate position of being able to hand the build over to fellow club member Don Stafford (who's own windsor has a similar EFI configuration to that you're considering). Don found a couple of issues with my block (got me another) and rectified other things I had overlooked like my failing to acquire a baffled sump - Don welded in some gates etc to keep it fed with oil while cornering hard. He also called to see how the install was going and provided all sorts of tips on a variety of items from break-in to spark plugs. (And he got the build done ahead of time )

I found working with someone who provided this sort of support a great help.

OK - didn't expect my post to go on like that - got up at 4am - might be a bit overtired....

LucidBelly?

[Philm]

Merv,
You can increase the output of a 302 without a bunch of new fancy parts.

You can rework the engine you have, new set of pistons and rings give the bores a machine and hone. Clean up the heads to make them flow better.

Then I would increase the comp ratio slightly and with a slightly higher lift cam would see a good gain in performance.

The important thing is to seek advice form good engine builders, this is worth paying a premium for parts and machine work. Get the spec wrong and you have a dog....... get it right and you get a screamer.


If you are not putting it on the track or drag racing this would still be enough to scare you, but then you will have the sound of angles singing that only a 302 windsor produces..... That is for you Les.


Phil

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Philm

then you will have the sound of angles singing that only a 302 windsor produces..... That is for you Les.

Phil

Oh my gawd!, Angels singing?. How would you recognize the song of angels?.
Uncle Phil, you have got downright bluddy poetic since your elevation to club Pres.

That aside, cobras have nothing to do with angels. They are meant to strike fear into the lives of others. They are supposed to be the reincarnation of the devil himself.

I like to think of cobras as I do a woman. All sexy curves, seductive, needs regular maintenance, handles well if you are gentle, and goes like hell if you push the right buttons. But under the exterior they are as mean as dog poop.

Having said all the above BS Phil, I gotta however, agree with your advice to Merv .... cept for the angels bit.

[Merv and Sharon]

So now I am looking for the Heavenly Motor Builder's workshop? OK, I think I have the picture. Find a good engineer/motor builder and work with them. To either replace the existing heads with a good quality alloy set and a mild cam OR rework the existing heads as you describe in prosaic terms Phil. The MasFlo is then able to be fitted and tuned to suit. The listen for the sound of wings flapping....

Hope I have this right!

Merv

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Philm

Merv,
You can increase the output of a 302 without a bunch of new fancy parts.

You can rework the engine you have, new set of pistons and rings give the bores a machine and hone. Clean up the heads to make them flow better.

Then I would increase the comp ratio slightly and with a slightly higher lift cam would see a good gain in performance.

then you will have the sound of angles singing that only a 302 windsor produces..... That is for you Les.


Phil

Spot on Phil

hehehe re angles singing, couldn't agree more Time for Uncle Les to clean out his ears again

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

This also looks good on a 302 but I don't know if Mass-flo will be applicable.....

Who's is that Al?

Looks like a 2.3L Whipple. It'll make some serious mumbo but I reckon they'll have problems with belt slip. Running a 6 rib setup probably won't be enough surface area. More imprtantly though they should also look at the belt wrap on the blower pulley. It's going to have less than 160 degrees of wrap and the tensioner setup only pushes the belt away from the pulley. I'd change the tensioner design so it pulls against the belt and wraps it further around at least. With serpentine pulley setups its all about surface area contact. Unlike a tooth belt which has positive engacement a serpentine belt transmitts the power by sheer friction between the belt and the pulley.

Cheers

[steeler]

Hi
I have to agree with the "Sound thing" (not angels). I have a 302 in the Cobra, an LS1 in the VZ sedan, My sons have a worked L98 in a VE ute, and my other son is just swapping his LS1 to a worked LS3 in a VZ ute (not heard that yet), but of all that, the 302 "sounds" best, not saying it goes better, just sounds great.

[Rebel1]

I must admit (reluctantly) that a small block ford in full song is a delight.

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

Who's is that Al?

Looks like a 2.3L Whipple. It'll make some serious mumbo but I reckon they'll have problems with belt slip. Running a 6 rib setup probably won't be enough surface area. More imprtantly though they should also look at the belt wrap on the blower pulley. It's going to have less than 160 degrees of wrap and the tensioner setup only pushes the belt away from the pulley. I'd change the tensioner design so it pulls against the belt and wraps it further around at least. With serpentine pulley setups its all about surface area contact. Unlike a tooth belt which has positive engacement a serpentine belt transmitts the power by sheer friction between the belt and the pulley.

Cheers

When the pic was taken it was being dummied up but the arm that the tensioner bolts to clamps around the snout so its all adjustable. As for 6 ribbed belts, the Yella Terra kit for the quad cams happily uses a 6 rib belt. At 6psi of boost the blower consumes 20hp as per whipple's website.

Cheers

Al

[Merv and Sharon]

Thanks for your excellent advice also LoBelly - now Lucid. Also Les, honesty is a great virtue!

Merv

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by NASSTY

When the pic was taken it was being dummied up but the arm that the tensioner bolts to clamps around the snout so its all adjustable. As for 6 ribbed belts, the Yella Terra kit for the quad cams happily uses a 6 rib belt. At 6psi of boost the blower consumes 20hp as per whipple's website.

Cheers

Al

I think the belt becomes more of an issue at higher boost levels. As the boost goes up the pulley size on the blower gets smaller and the surface area reduces even further.

Keep us posted how it goes together. Looks like an interesting project. Doesn't look like you have an intercooler under there, are you going with water/alcohol injection to reduce detonation or have you dropped your comp?

Cheers

[NASSTY]

Originally Posted by Aussie Mike

I think the belt becomes more of an issue at higher boost levels. As the boost goes up the pulley size on the blower gets smaller and the surface area reduces even further.

Keep us posted how it goes together. Looks like an interesting project. Doesn't look like you have an intercooler under there, are you going with water/alcohol injection to reduce detonation or have you dropped your comp?

Cheers

The thing to note about Whipples or any twin screw blower (as apposed to roots or centrifical blowers) is that they are the most efficient blowers out there. They require less HP to turn and they don't heat up the air (making it less dense) as much. So for the same psi compared to other types of blowers they produce more power.

In this setup comp was lowered thr the use of copper head gaskets and the throttle body is in the scoop, getting cold ambient air so the use of an intercooler was deemed not to be required for the boost level it will run. It also uses a bypass valve. It is open when there is vaccum in the manifold, effectively turning the engine back to a naturally asperated setup and closes as vaccum falls away, making boost. So at idle and part throttle the blower only uses 1hp to turn. The bypass valve effectively equalises the pressure on the entry and exit of the blower. It doesn't route air around the blower.

Whipples also make max boost at 2000rpm and hold it through the rev range too.

Easiest way to turn a SBF into a BBF.

Cheers

Al

[macloft]

That Whipple looks great
Two things I love on a engine are supercharger or injection stacks.
The wipple they now sell for a LS1 at the same price as any other s _charger and you can use the factory computer so cheaper than stacks.
The front serpentine belt I also like but how much noise will it make ie the tooth belt system was very noisey.
Also emmissions. Are you alright on a 302 as Mustangs came out with superchargers or is it a take your chance thing after registration.
One could be tempted to bring back a 302 supercharged motor from USA.
Bruce

[Rob. Smith]

Although it is now a tiny V8...The flat head ford has the sweetest note ever produced by a V8...sad to say the leyland v8 sounds ok too ( copy of an OLdsmobile block )

[Merv and Sharon]

I am really pleased with the sound of the 302 revving. It is no Ferrari but just what I hoped for.

Merv

[Rebel1]

Merv, you continue with your current plans and you will be more than pleased.

Get rid of that terrible church organ intake, good heads and cam, and the mass-flo will really wake the beast within.

[Merv and Sharon]

I don't want to wake it too much!

Merv

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by Merv and Sharon

I don't want to wake it too much!

Merv

I say the same about the first wife.