Vms 427

[itstock]

I finally had the tune checked in my car (which by the way the tuner said was nearly dead on), WOT adjusted, and the car got dynoed. This is on a dynocom dyno (loaded like a mustang dyno), the tq generally reads a bit higher, but the rwhp number seem to match traps speeds to the mph on other cars. So I'll be hunting my 130+ trap in decent air.

This motor is the VMS 427x with the comp cams xr294rf-hr10 retrofit hydraulic cam and quick fuel 780.

The motor feels strong, and Injection Connection seemed to think that Vintage Motorsports did a really good job and built a very stout motor! So props to Brian on their behalf, and thanks on mine!

Injection Connection Tunes a AC Cobra 480RWHP - YouTube

[Cashburn]

We've battled with the idea of a rating system for the engine power here. The engines we have dynoed out have all been done with the front accessories (alternator, belt), proper waterpump, actual carb you get on the motor etc. and the numbers seem less impressive than other builders (600hp pump gas small blocks really?)... but then you take those other motors and put them on the same dyno with the parts they show up with and suddenly, well you get the picture.

X is a great motor, I love driving them. Our new R offering pushes it a little further. We owe these other guys for all the research over the years, but want to optimize it for everyone.

[GBowman]

That is impressive!!! 10% loss at the RW? Can't ask for better than that...

I live pretty lose to this place-been looking for a dyno shop for after the car is together maybe Ill check this place out.

[itstock]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

We've battled with the idea of a rating system for the engine power here. The engines we have dynoed out have all been done with the front accessories (alternator, belt), proper waterpump, actual carb you get on the motor etc. and the numbers seem less impressive than other builders (600hp pump gas small blocks really?)... but then you take those other motors and put them on the same dyno with the parts they show up with and suddenly, well you get the picture.

X is a great motor, I love driving them. Our new R offering pushes it a little further. We owe these other guys for all the research over the years, but want to optimize it for everyone.

I guess I should disclose that the air filter made 20rwhp less, so 460ish rwhp with the air filter on. I will probably race without the air filter, but it isn't a huge difference. I think that your advertised numbers are very fair to the buyer.

Originally Posted by GBowman

That is impressive!!! 10% loss at the RW? Can't ask for better than that...

I live pretty lose to this place-been looking for a dyno shop for after the car is together maybe Ill check this place out.

Injection Connection said that it should be around 550 hp at the flywheel, and I believe Jay was "advertising" the engine as 530+. It went in to the shop making 15rwhp less than the final numbers (35rwhp less if you count the air filter). So assuming somewhere between 12 and 15% drivetrain loss through the TKO600, the numbers are pretty close.

There are a couple of good places around here, but I trusted them to not scratch up the car while it was in there. And they didn't keep the car for weeks.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Cashburn

We've battled with the idea of a rating system for the engine power here. The engines we have dynoed out have all been done with the front accessories (alternator, belt), proper waterpump, actual carb you get on the motor etc. and the numbers seem less impressive than other builders (600hp pump gas small blocks really?)... but then you take those other motors and put them on the same dyno with the parts they show up with and suddenly, well you get the picture.

X is a great motor, I love driving them. Our new R offering pushes it a little further. We owe these other guys for all the research over the years, but want to optimize it for everyone.

So you've put crate engines that you've received on an engine dyno before you put them in the car?

[Cashburn]

Originally Posted by blykins

So you've put crate engines that you've received on an engine dyno before you put them in the car?

Yes, on inventory builds over the years. Have also driven them in the cars...

[GBowman]

Well at least I won't have any belts besides the alt

[blykins]

I was referring to engines that you've received from other builders. Have you received those, then spent time to dyno them again before you put them in the car? You're still getting short blocks in and slapping the heads on, right?

I don't have my own engine dyno...I think it's a lot easier for people to believe you when it's a third party dyno. Needless to say, I've seen differences in dyno to dyno. Not saying anyone is inflating numbers, but saying that some read lower than others. I always dread posting my dyno numbers because they are generally lower than other builders' numbers. It's always weird to see your engine with selectively ported heads, a ported intake, larger cam, etc., and still make 25 hp less than other advertised engines. That's fine because I'd rather have a 450hp engine that outruns the 600hp guy at the track.

I always dyno with the carb that goes with the engine. I don't always use the headers that go with the Cobra though, as on some dynos it's not feasible to plumb them up easily. Sometimes the customer doesn't furnish the accessories, so the engine can't be dyno'd with them.

You will also see big differences in chassis dynos. Even if itstock's loss was just 10%, IMO that engine will just not be over 600 lb-ft of torque at the flywheel. Even so, Cobras will usually see 15-20% losses due to the driveline and the restrictive sidepipes.

Basically, dynos are a necessary evil. I use them to make sure the engine is sound, no leaks, etc, and that's about where the line is drawn.

[itstock]

Originally Posted by blykins

I was referring to engines that you've received from other builders. Have you received those, then spent time to dyno them again before you put them in the car? You're still getting short blocks in and slapping the heads on, right?

I don't have my own engine dyno...I think it's a lot easier for people to believe you when it's a third party dyno. Needless to say, I've seen differences in dyno to dyno. Not saying anyone is inflating numbers, but saying that some read lower than others. I always dread posting my dyno numbers because they are generally lower than other builders' numbers. It's always weird to see your engine with selectively ported heads, a ported intake, larger cam, etc., and still make 25 hp less than other advertised engines. That's fine because I'd rather have a 450hp engine that outruns the 600hp guy at the track.

I always dyno with the carb that goes with the engine. I don't always use the headers that go with the Cobra though, as on some dynos it's not feasible to plumb them up easily. Sometimes the customer doesn't furnish the accessories, so the engine can't be dyno'd with them.

You will also see big differences in chassis dynos. Even if itstock's loss was just 10%, IMO that engine will just not be over 600 lb-ft of torque at the flywheel. Even so, Cobras will usually see 15-20% losses due to the driveline and the restrictive sidepipes.

Basically, dynos are a necessary evil. I use them to make sure the engine is sound, no leaks, etc, and that's about where the line is drawn.

On your last part, no doubt about that. As I said, the trap speeds seem to match hp extremely closely on this dyno (600rwhp c6's that trap 134 through a 6 speed, 500rwhp fox bodies that trap 125 through t5, etc). I brought it in to make sure the tune was good and had them get me some dyno numbers while it was there. Based on similar engine combo's with similar cams/heads/intake, 530-550hp should be about right at the flywheel.

[blykins]

The hp numbers are very conservative and accurate, but the torque numbers are not. Normally a 1.3 lb-ft/ci engine is a very strong engine that usually requires a little attention on parts selection.

At 603 (estimated) with 427 cubes, you are over 1.4 lb-ft/ci. It's also advertised to lose 9% through the driveline and exhaust, which isn't accurate at all.

That's why I hate dynos...

[Cashburn]

We don't have a dyno either, it's a 3rd party that also ports the heads we slap on ... but our entire chain is by reputable shops that earn their livings doing this for many years and many cars, and it's all they do.

We have direct experience with over 200 engines from various builders, a very short list that we will continue to offer our customers. Any engine shop can build one good engine, I prefer track records and responsiveness to issues. If a shop is operating on razor thin operating capital to the point they can't build your engine without size able deposits exceeding 50% before your engine is complete, how could they possibly afford to take care of you if a problem creeps up? They cannot. They do not. We have first hand experience there.

We do have a chassis dyno but its not even setup yet.

[blykins]

Jay, you do wonderful work from what I've heard and have a great reputation. That's paramount for success and a good customer base.

However, I would be careful about what you say about other builders' work and claims...as dyno results such as shown here don't back it up with much street cred, know what I mean? And by no means am I undercutting anyone's work here. I'm just saying that dynos can't be counted upon with 110% certainty, so again, I would be careful about making horsepower statements.

I'd be happy to supply engines to you. I don't require 50% down, and as a one-man guy operating a business under internet scrutiny, I take a lot of pride in my work. I just won't supply engines with sub-par components, as we've discussed in the past.

You'll get to see one of my engines in person here pretty soon. It will be dyno'd and I'll welcome you to dyno it again. I have nothing to hide.

[Cashburn]

None of the builders I am calling into question are active here or post here. Some are out of biz, some are big advertisers in magazines and on another forum.

Just clarifying.

If an engine shows up with a dyno chart saying 545hp, and you dyno it and it makes 512hp and then you put your engine on the same dyno and it makes 538hp... Which engine makes more power?

[blykins]

Jay, I understand that you're not really an engine guy and your expertise is in sales. With that being said, there are actually too many variables to answer your question. I know what you're trying to get at, but it's not that simple.

BTW, what you're saying does happen, but I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I'd like that to be given to me if I were standing trial...hahaha

[blykins]

And that's a valid point as well.