What Special Parts Needed for Adding a Supercharger

[Jus Cruisin]

I've had two Roush Mustangs, one 4.6 and one 5.0. Both used completely stock Mustang GT blocks. The stock 4.6 handled 500+ hp and the 5.0 handles close to 700 hp easy. No need to do any internal engine work with a Roush setup. Plenty of Mustang guys running blowers with stock internals. VMP sells a good Roush - type supercharger. He has some really good tunes for automatics. His wife's Mustang is one of the quickest stock automatic Mustangs in the country.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by Jus Cruisin

I've had two Roush Mustangs, one 4.6 and one 5.0. Both used completely stock Mustang GT blocks. The stock 4.6 handled 500+ hp and the 5.0 handles close to 700 hp easy. No need to do any internal engine work with a Roush setup. Plenty of Mustang guys running blowers with stock internals. VMP sells a good Roush - type supercharger. He has some really good tunes for automatics. His wife's Mustang is one of the quickest stock automatic Mustangs in the country.

It is important not to mislead those who have not worked with high output supercharged engines. The n/a experience only in the most minimal way prepares you for a blown gas engine experience. There are few building practices other than cleanliness that transfer over.

Lets assume for a moment that you do not build your engine but just put a blower on a n/a OEM long block like the OP wants to. I am going to pick on a friend's 03 Cobra converted to an auto trans and using an 11 year old long block, the one that was in the car when it was delivered.

In addition to the auto trans and Whipple blower the only other changes to the car were the addition of long tube headers and a retune for the blower and headers. Stock cams, heads, pistons, block, crank, rods — stock off the showroom floor OEM engine eleven years old.

The car with driver weighs just under 3500 lbs. In the Youtube link below you can watch him at the 2014 WCF Super Street Championships win the event! He ran 8.3x's on the OEM long block the car was delivered with. In 2016 after an engine rebuild and swapping over to a single large turbo he was running 7.6x's at over 175 mph at the 2016 WCF event.

Link #1 2014 WCF => [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4tzfgNUiAo"]Harold @ 2014 WCF[/ame]

Link #2 2016 WCF => [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je9JNHb7tVU"]Harold @ 2016 WCF[/ame]

When you put a blower on these engines The World Changes! If you try to sneak by with n/a parts you will not be as happy as if you used the correct supercharged parts.

In the end it is only your money and your parts. If you don't mind, then it don't matter.

The supercharged versions of these engines will absolutely astound you when you see or rather experience how potent they are. Now put one of them into a car that is 1000lbs lighter than Harolds car and use the wrong parts.

Starting to get the picture ...


Ed

[Jus Cruisin]

The point I'm making is the Roush supercharger is NOT high output like a Whipple or Kenne Bell Mammoth. The most boost you are going to get is 5 lbs. or 6 if you change pulleys. They ARE a safe, easy conversion that is very docile in a Mustang weighing 3,600 +/- lbs. Roush wouldn't include a 3 year / 36,000 mi warranty on an otherwise bone stock 5.0l engine if it was certain to grenade the engine now would they? It certainly will make a 2,400 lb Backdraft scoot. For horsing around on the street I don't think completely rebuilding the engine is economically practical. Put it under the stress of drag racing and a lot of things will need upgrading.

[fordracing65]

Coyote motors handle over 700hp stock eternal parts easy.

[fordracing65]

Take your engine to 650hp. That's super easy to do and the number just sounds so cool. Plus anytime forced induction the Tourque is there also.

[123redtail]

I have a coyote in my backdraft with VMP blower.I looked close at all pulleys ,etc. at front of engine , it all looks unmodified and plenty of clearance. looks lite a VMP blower is a easy add.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by Jus Cruisin

The point I'm making is the Roush supercharger is NOT high output like a Whipple or Kenne Bell Mammoth. The most boost you are going to get is 5 lbs. or 6 if you change pulleys. They ARE a safe, easy conversion that is very docile in a Mustang weighing 3,600 +/- lbs. Roush wouldn't include a 3 year / 36,000 mi warranty on an otherwise bone stock 5.0l engine if it was certain to grenade the engine now would they? It certainly will make a 2,400 lb Backdraft scoot. For horsing around on the street I don't think completely rebuilding the engine is economically practical. Put it under the stress of drag racing and a lot of things will need upgrading.

You are attempting to find reasons to believe you do not need to worry.

Another friend before switching to a bigger Whipple used a TVS on his Cobra. He ran 8.5x's et's with a 2.3L TVS at about the same weight as Harold.

I think you should just bolt the blower on. You will embark on a journey of discovery and importantly you won't need to ask for any assistance because your engine will speak to you in unmistakeable terms. Best of all you will eventually graduate from the school even if you have to repeat a course or two a few times.


Ed

[Jus Cruisin]

Originally Posted by eschaider

You are attempting to find reasons to believe you do not need to worry.

Another friend before switching to a bigger Whipple used a TVS on his Cobra. He ran 8.5x's et's with a 2.3L TVS at about the same weight as Harold.

I think you should just bolt the blower on. You will embark on a journey of discovery and importantly you won't need to ask for any assistance because your engine will speak to you in unmistakeable terms. Best of all you will eventually graduate from the school even if you have to repeat a course or two a few times.


Ed

I'm not doing the conversion. I'm just trying to indicate that with over 60,000 street miles that I personally put on 2 Roush Mustangs, there is no need to scrap the existing stock Ford OEM internals as long as the Roush tune is used. There are thousands of Roush Mustangs with "Roushchargers" on them. I was active on the original Roush Owner Enthusiasts Association (ROEA) and most recently on the Roush Road Crew as I owned the 2Roush Mustangs over a 9 year period. I toured there assembly plants multiple times. The engines with the Roushchargers are bullet proof. They don't granade. Many are tracked and drag raced without issues. There is no doom and gloom that you are trying to project.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by Jus Cruisin

I'm not doing the conversion. I'm just trying to indicate that with over 60,000 street miles that I personally put on 2 Roush Mustangs, there is no need to scrap the existing stock Ford OEM internals as long as the Roush tune is used. There are thousands of Roush Mustangs with "Roushchargers" on them. I was active on the original Roush Owner Enthusiasts Association (ROEA) and most recently on the Roush Road Crew as I owned the 2Roush Mustangs over a 9 year period. I toured there assembly plants multiple times. The engines with the Roushchargers are bullet proof. They don't granade. Many are tracked and drag raced without issues. There is no doom and gloom that you are trying to project.

Roush has the benefit of Ford's calibration team for their supercharged engines. Significantly Roush doesn't use n/a internals in their supercharged engines. They use the Ford developed or sourced supercharged internals. Very importantly no engine is bullet proof, especially supercharged gasoline engines.

There is always a good supply of Doubting Thomases for these types of conversions. The have no shortage of reasons why the transition is a slam dunk and they also do not have to write the checks when the engines fail. The engine failures are usually met with a comment like, 'I certainly didn't expect that to happen' or my all time favorite, 'gotta pay to play'.

To suggest to another enthusiast that all that is required to supercharge their current engine is the blower is beyond irresponsible. The difference between a Roush / Ford engineered supercharged engine and an aftermarket clone where the upgrade was to add the blower to a n/a engine is beyond night and day.

Don't be so cavalier with other people's parts and money. You would not appreciate it if the shoe were on the other foot.


Ed

[Jus Cruisin]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Roush has the benefit of Ford's calibration team for their supercharged engines. Significantly Roush doesn't use n/a internals in their supercharged engines. They use the Ford developed or sourced supercharged internals. Very importantly no engine is bullet proof, especially supercharged gasoline engines.


Ed

WRONG.......

This is my second Roush being built. Shipped as a Mustang GT to Roush, as everyone of them are.














I do know quite a bit about Roush Mustangs and the Roush supercharger and I'm friends with a few Roush employees. A Roush employee did me a favor and took pictures of my RS3 being built. Above are a few of the 25 or 30 pictures that were taken throughout the build.

[eschaider]

You are right about some of the Coyote engines not using premium SC internals.

Like Ford and because of Ford delivering some n/a vehicles that way, Roush has also embraced cost savers like powdered metal connecting rods on some of the engine offerings. Because of Ford's bean counters continuing efforts to manage high volume vehicle costs downward they have moved away from the Manley H-Beam rod and other components on selected engines.

When you look at the FRPP crate engine offerings you will find three out of the four Coyote offerings use Manley rods and one, the supercharged offering M6007-A50 SCA, uses all supercharged internals. That means 9.5:1 compression blower pistons for the supercharged engine and not the 11:1 pistons of the n/a engines like the OP currently has in his engine.

The other two Coyote offerings (M6007-A50 NAA and M6007-A50 XS) are both n/a packages and also use the higher quality internals including the Manley rods.

What you are doing to someone who didn't buy a Roush package with a warranty, is give him poor build guidance that will more likely than not result in broken pieces and expensive repairs. You bought a warrantied package through Roush. Should your's break you have the Roush warranty to protect you. Should his break he simply has nothing to protect him.

The OP has never run a blown gas engine in one of these cars and obviously has never built a blown gas engine or he would not be asking for help. When someone asks for help he should be steered into safe waters not out into the deep where he can hurt his engine and wallet.

Your arguments about Roush uses this or that are cute internet cheap shots designed to try to win an internet argument. More importantly however they are misleading information for someone who is a first time supercharged engine builder that is going to be standing all alone in terms of warranty protection when he finishes his build.

Because he is on his own, and we don't know what he will use for engine management among a myriad of other things, we collectively should be advising him in a fashion that minimizes the potential for engine and checkbook damage and maximizes the opportunity for a happy ending.

To do otherwise is at a minimum disingenuous and at its worst mean spirited.

To the OP, I stand by my earlier comments about building your engine correctly. Don't take shortcuts, they will hurt you on a supercharged engine especially one with a positive displacement blower. It will cost you a bit more to build the engine correctly but no where near as much as it will cost you if you break the engine you have. When supercharged engines die they are impressive. The angst you will experience just because internet guidance told you, you didn't need the 'good' parts is hard to communicate other than to say it is profound.


Ed

[Jus Cruisin]

Originally Posted by eschaider

You are right about some of the Coyote engines not using premium SC internals.

Like Ford and because of Ford delivering some n/a vehicles that way, Roush has also embraced cost savers like powdered metal connecting rods on some of the engine offerings. Because of Ford's bean counters continuing efforts to manage high volume vehicle costs downward they have moved away from the Manley H-Beam rod and other components on selected engines.

When you look at the FRPP crate engine offerings you will find three out of the four Coyote offerings use Manley rods and one, the supercharged offering M6007-A50 SCA, uses all supercharged internals. That means 9.5:1 compression blower pistons for the supercharged engine and not the 11:1 pistons of the n/a engines like the OP currently has in his engine.

The other two Coyote offerings (M6007-A50 NAA and M6007-A50 XS) are both n/a packages and also use the higher quality internals including the Manley rods.

What you are doing to someone who didn't buy a Roush package with a warranty, is give him poor build guidance that will more likely than not result in broken pieces and expensive repairs. You bought a warrantied package through Roush. Should your's break you have the Roush warranty to protect you. Should his break he simply has nothing to protect him.

The OP has never run a blown gas engine in one of these cars and obviously has never built a blown gas engine or he would not be asking for help. When someone asks for help he should be steered into safe waters not out into the deep where he can hurt his engine and wallet.

Your arguments about Roush uses this or that are cute internet cheap shots designed to try to win an internet argument. More importantly however they are misleading information for someone who is a first time supercharged engine builder that is going to be standing all alone in terms of warranty protection when he finishes his build.

Because he is on his own, and we don't know what he will use for engine management among a myriad of other things, we collectively should be advising him in a fashion that minimizes the potential for engine and checkbook damage and maximizes the opportunity for a happy ending.

To do otherwise is at a minimum disingenuous and at its worst mean spirited.

To the OP, I stand by my earlier comments about building your engine correctly. Don't take shortcuts, they will hurt you on a supercharged engine especially one with a positive displacement blower. It will cost you a bit more to build the engine correctly but no where near as much as it will cost you if you break the engine you have. When supercharged engines die they are impressive. The angst you will experience just because internet guidance told you, you didn't need the 'good' parts is hard to communicate other than to say it is profound.


Ed

Whatever dude........


Now you're dissing Roush Performance Products for taking "shortcuts" building Roush Mustangs over the last 20 years along with the 100's of supercharged Roush pickups and Raptors they built. They built about 100 special Mustangs using the Aluminator engine. All the rest were built like the two I bought. Bone stock, off the assembly line cars and trucks.

I'm done...................

[eschaider]

I think your predisposition to turn the topic and the thread into "dissing" some individual or entity using a keyboard commando approach to the subject not only misses the mark by a country mile but it provides no help / guidance to the OP who started this thread asking for help / guidance.

If you are happy with what you've got, that is great. That has nothing to do however with his request for help / guidance. Shucks you didn't even build yours you went out and bought a toy. This is a self motivated hobbyist that wants to embark on a personal build effort, an effort you deliberately chose not to pursue. Before he begins he is taking the time and effort to measure twice and cut once, so to speak.

Your guidance steers him into a situation he diligently is trying to avoid placing himself in. I originally gave you the benefit of the doubt when I suggested your guidance might just be disingenuous, perhaps innocently misguided. Increasingly I am of the opinion the basis of your efforts may be a mean spirited attempt to create mischief. I can not for the life of me understand why you would want to do that to someone who came to us, trying to do things the right way and and has taken the time and effort to ask for guidance to help him do so.


Ed

[lovehamr]

While not apples to apples, the only supercharger conversions that I've done have been Toyota Tacoma 6 cylinders (a 3.4L and a 4L). That being said the SCs were TRD twisted roots types and were slapped on the stock engines with the install kits which included larger injectors and a new computer. Power boost was supposed to be 30%, I don't know because I never put either on a dyno. I can say that the seat-of-pants difference was astounding. The 3.6L I traded in with 156k miles on it and the 4L I traded in with over 170k on it and both were still running great, not even any smoking.

The point is, as Jus points out, for limited boost applications then the stock engine is fine for most modern engines. The inverse of that is that going over board with boost can turn that same engine into a grenade.

I think we all get that guys.

[eschaider]

The challenge with a 2.3L blower spinning approximately 2x crank speed is the engine could see ~16 psi of boost depending on alt, temp barometer ... 16 psi of boost is a far cry from limited boost, especially with 11:1 compression. A blower TVS or twin screw at 2x crank speed is fairly normal for the basic pulley packages available for the engines.

I just don't want to see the OP thinking he is on the safe side of the line, break his toy in short order after he builds it because of poor guidance.


Ed

[505stang]

to the op, listen to eschaider, I have been drag racing for 30 years, seen a lot of engines, done a lot of engines, superchargers are hard on components, in my opinion trying to squeeze that much more power without doing internal work on engine will cost you a whole lot more. Stock components that are probably in your engine will not take the abuse the supercharger will give it. Just my opinion. Hope it works out for you.

[fordracing65]

Coyote stock eternals can handle 700hp easy.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 505stang

to the op, listen to eschaider, I have been drag racing for 30 years, seen a lot of engines, done a lot of engines, superchargers are hard on components, in my opinion trying to squeeze that much more power without doing internal work on engine will cost you a whole lot more. Stock components that are probably in your engine will not take the abuse the supercharger will give it. Just my opinion. Hope it works out for you.

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Coyote stock eternals can handle 700hp easy.

I don't get what all the tizzy is about this. People have been putting superchargers on Mustangs with stock internals for as long as I can remember. I put two on my 4.6L engines, where the generally accepted threshold was 625HP max. The Ford offerings were about 550HP max. You can get into plenty of trouble with 550HP (a little less for the convertibles). The Coyote stepped up the bar, but you can get into plenty of trouble with 550-600HP. Your challenge with that much HP on any car, Mustang and especially Cobra, will be to keep the rear wheels on the ground. So your area of focus ought to be on suspension rather than whether the engine can take a blower. It can.

Case in point. Ford Performance (previously Ford Racing) offers the following kit:

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6066-M8627

with 670HP. Full warranty is retained. No reason to tear into the engine's innards. Furthermore, this kit is 50-state legal which means it passed CARB in CA.

[1985 CCX]

You will need a kanipschin pin....

[x96535]

eschaider, I believe you are the one completely missing the point here. If you read through my comments, you will see I am asking specifically about what special parts are needed to retrofit a supercharger into one of these cars. I am an experienced racer with N/A, supercharged and turbocharged engines, having built the majority of my cars myself. I don't need to be schooled on what internals to use. The Coyote engine is a proven platform in its stock configuration for the amount of power I'm looking to make. THIS IS NOT A TOPIC ON THE INTERNAL FORTITUDE OF THE COYOTE ENGINE, so stop trying to make it into one. I just wanted to know things like special brackets needed to relocate the alternator, if the hood needed to be restructured for clearance, etc. STOP ASSUMING I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF BLOWN PLATFORMS! Some of you just type to see how much you can type.

For the record, my questions have been answered by a local with the same setup I'm looking to do, so thank you to those that actually contributed in a meaningful way to this thread.