New Backdrafter

[coach36]

Hello everyone,

I'm glad to have found this Cobra forum as I am about to finally get my own in May 2020. I've ordered a BRT4 GT, without drive train though. So challenges are coming my way and I am hoping to find answers/advice here.

I already have a bunch of questions, and since I have time, those might help me to make decisions. I'm tight on a budget and can't afford costly mistakes.

As for now, I'd like to go with a junkyard Coyote Gen 3 engine with a MT82 6 speed swap package. I already heard that this is a tight fit, but hey

I'm super excited but terrified at the same time
So what are going to be the hurdles in regard space, and what are the solutions?

(If this is the wrong place to post this... let me know

[hawretre]

Great start to a new adventure!

Like you, I am also new to The Club. I wasn't brave enough or wise enough to attempt the build. So I purchased a completed vehicle directly from Backdraft in Boynton Beach.

It has the Gen 3 Coyote and a Tremec TKO 600 5-speed. I am very happy with the engine /trans choice. Although it still has some tuning issues. My setup is a 2018 Ford Performance crate engine (P/N M-6017-A50C) and utilizes the Ford Performance control pack (P/N M-6017-M50B).

I am sure some more knowledgable members may correct me. But using a junkyard Gen 3 Coyote may present some interesting problems regarding the PCM. Late model Coyote PCMs are locked to the VIN by way of the Body Control Module. It may be necessary for you to purchase the new Control Pack.

The composite oil pan will probably be a problem. Moroso makes a pan specifically for Cobra kit cars with 5.0L installs (Moroso P/N 20570). I have also read of clearance problems with the alternator due to the tight fit.

Enjoy the adventure. I sure both of us will learn a lot by reading this thread

[bobcowan]

Getting the engine in is a bit tricky. It's huge.

The kit car oil pan is a T design. The motor mounts are not the best design. They end up fitting between the oil pan sump and rail. You'll have to remove the oil pan to get the engine in.
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...rear-sump-pan/

As said, the engine is really wide. You'll need to remove the valve covers to fit through the hood opening.

And the steering may interfere with the valve cover just a tad. You might need to clearance the left front corner just a smidgen.

The stock alternator is much too big to fit in the stock location; it hits the frame rail. You'll need to adapt an aftermarket racing 80A alternator. You'll have to custom fabricate a new mount, and add an additional idler pulley.
Mini Racing Alternator - Performance Distributors

If you don't ever plan on installing a blower, the Power by the Hour has a bracket set to move the alternator to the right side of the engine.
https://pbhperformance.com/product/s...a-5-0l-coyote/

If you're thinking about power steering, that can be a challenge as well because the Mustang uses electric steering. There are a couple of companies that make brackets for this. Most of the hydraulic pumps fit on the right front of the engine; the same place the PBTH alternator mount sits. Since you won't be installing AC, you could fabricate a mount there to install a KRC pump with remote reservoir. I'm seriously considering electric PS.

The aftermarket alternator works just fine. At idle with all the lights on, the alternator makes 28A (I measured it). The stock alternator is rated at 120A or so. But it has to run a LOT of electrical accessories on the Mustang.

Adapting the factory wiring harness is a nightmare. There are so many bundles of wires that you just don't know where to start. Power By the Hour can help with some harnesses. But it's not a simple Power and ground connection. You could buy the Control Pack from Ford For $2,000 and simply replace all the original wiring harnesses.

The factory computer is mounted to the right front corner of the Mustang engine bay. It doesn't really fit anywhere in the BDR. You'll need to open the harness and move the wires around to make it fit the way you want it to.

You can use the stock factory computer. There are ways to eliminate the PATS. And it can be tuned. Getting a custom tune on the dyno is a good idea if you've made significant changes - intake, cams, blower, etc. Otherwise, the stock tune will probably be just fine.

The tachometer only runs at half speed. Even after installing the adapter from AutoMeter, it still only runs at half speed. I plan to replace all of the gauges this winter or next. I'm not that concerned about it right now; I know how to read it.

If wired correctly, you can use the push button in the dash. It's nice, and kinda cool, but I don't see that as a big deal.

[FredG]

Welcome to the club. You will quickly learn that this is the place to go to learn about your car. The people on here have pretty much seen or experienced it all. Good luck

[brodie]

I bought a classic roadster ll out of colorado. I live in North East pa it was a real pain in the rear end.I went to triple a they coudnt help.it took 3 months to get it straight. then I had to get a safety inspection for $100.00

[coach36]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

Getting the engine in is a bit tricky. It's huge.

The kit car oil pan is a T design. The motor mounts are not the best design. They end up fitting between the oil pan sump and rail. You'll have to remove the oil pan to get the engine in...

@bobcowan Man, that is already a tonload of experience you share wit me here, so thanks for that.

So I found a place to get the full swap package and they will also delete pats (security system, etc). They said that i don't need the ford control pack, and since i let it come as a 'crank-a-pallet'... what can go wrong?!

So what option did you go with in regard alternator? The mini alternator? Is 80amp fair enough? is it plug n play? Dis you made your bracket/mount and where did you put that extra pulley?

I would definitely go with electric powersteering for numerous reasons. Do you already have an eye on a system which would work for us?

Another question i have
Could you use the Backdraft gas tank or did you go with a other option, and what's your solution in regard fuel pumps?

Thank you so much!

[bobcowan]

The "crank-pallet" is what I started with. But integrating the factory wiring with the BDR chassis is very complicated. I had to hire a professional to do that for me, as I am not an electrical engineer. Keep in mind, my car has a 6R80 transmission. There were no parts available from Ford for this swap when I built it.

The "instruction manual" supplied by BDR is really no help at all. It basically says, 1. Install engine 2. connect wiring harness. There is absolutely no information for installing the Coyote engine.

I used the mini 80A alternator. I have an Edelblock blower installed, and that requires a change in the front belt set up. 80A is plenty. With all the lights on and the engine at a fast idle, the alternator makes 28A. Electric PS requires a 30A circuit.

I haven't decided on the e-PS. It can be done by installing the motor and controls under the dash. You'll have to do some cutting and welding to do it right, which to me is not a big problem

I'm really looking at Unisteer, as I see a lot of advantages:
- the motor and column are all one piece.
- You can add a center horn button
- move blinker arm to the left side
- tilt column
- removable steering wheel.
https://www.unisteer.com/collections...ing-column-kit

When I get ready to do this, I'll contact them about specific measurements and see what fits. Or maybe they can make me a custom column.

My car came with an aluminum gas tank. It is a special order item. The hole is specifically cut and drilled for a specific fuel pump. This is the one I am using; supplies plenty of fuel for 600+hp. It fits the pre-drilled hole perfectly. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tnk-gpa-4


I spent a bunch of time altering the bucket that came with the fuel pump so it would fit around the internal baffles. It retrospect it would have been a whole lot easier and better to simply install a Holley Hydro-Mat, and throw the bucket in the trash.


Speaking of fuel tanks, mine was full of aluminum chips and shavings. Make sure you remove the tank from the chassis and clean it out really well.

[coach36]

bobcowan, your input here is so appreciated man. Stay with me

Gee, that PS column is pricy. So when your 80a alternator put out 28a, and the PS asks for 30- you'll have to upgrade the alternator? What would that be?
However... doing the 80 small aternator gives the space down there what this is in the first place, right? does it come with the right brackets and belt? is it plug n play?

As for now, i have no clue what you're saying in regard fuel pump
Though, The engine package includes the OEM pump of the doner mustang. I can't just use this one (even with mods)?

[bobcowan]

An alternator will only produce as much power as is needed. Increasing the load will increase the output, up to about it's maximum. My racing alternator will (in theory) produce 80A if needed.

Yesterday I had the engine running and the lights on (all my lights are LED's). I used a clamp style ammeter to measure alternator output, and got about 28A. In theory, I could add another 52 amp load before maxing out the alternator. The 30A load of the e-PS should be well within the range of the alternator.

Although, now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, the fan wasn't running. I think I'll do that test again this week end.

The OEM donor fuel pump is about useless. There's really no way you can make that fit in the BDR fuel tank. Just toss it out and plan to purchase a new one.

My aluminum tank came with a larg'ish hole in the top of the tank, with surrounding screw holes. The hole is specifically designed for this particular fuel pump. Except for the small collector, it really is a simple bolt in. Like I said, get rid of the collector and use a Holley HydraMat. I used the high volume pump because of the supercharger.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/hydramat/

You need to pull back the trunk carpeting and see what your fuel tank is set up for.

[hawretre]

The Factory Five Forum has an entire sub-forum dedicated to the Coyote Build. Somewhere in all of that discussion there is surely some good information regarding PATS, fuel pumps and steering.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/foru...all-and-tuning

I certainly bow to Bob's expertise with the Backdraft/Coyote build. I am beginning to work up a very long wish list.

[coach36]

Originally Posted by hawretre

The Factory Five Forum has an entire sub-forum dedicated to the Coyote Build. Somewhere in all of that discussion there is surely some good information regarding PATS, fuel pumps and steering.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/foru...all-and-tuning

I certainly bow to Bob's expertise with the Backdraft/Coyote build. I am beginning to work up a very long wish list.

Sweet, thx hawretre

[coach36]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

An alternator will only produce as much power as is needed. Increasing the load will increase the output, up to about it's maximum. My racing alternator will (in theory) produce 80A if needed.

Yesterday I had the engine running and the lights on (all my lights are LED's). I used a clamp style ammeter to measure alternator output, and got about 28A. In theory, I could add another 52 amp load before maxing out the alternator. The 30A load of the e-PS should be well within the range of the alternator.

Although, now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, the fan wasn't running. I think I'll do that test again this week end.

The OEM donor fuel pump is about useless. There's really no way you can make that fit in the BDR fuel tank. Just toss it out and plan to purchase a new one.

My aluminum tank came with a larg'ish hole in the top of the tank, with surrounding screw holes. The hole is specifically designed for this particular fuel pump. Except for the small collector, it really is a simple bolt in. Like I said, get rid of the collector and use a Holley HydraMat. I used the high volume pump because of the supercharger.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/hydramat/

You need to pull back the trunk carpeting and see what your fuel tank is set up for.

Thx bobcowan!

So what exact fuel pump would you go for when also using a HydraMat?

Would you think that a small 50a alternator would be enough for me then?

The coyote package comes with the fly by wire throttle. Do I have to mod it to make this work in the BD?
What kind of pedals (adjustable?) are you using anyway?

[hawretre]

This is the alternator on my 2018 Gen 3 Coyote and the associated bracket. PBH Performance appears to have some useful items for these swaps.

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by coach36

Thx bobcowan!

So what exact fuel pump would you go for when also using a HydraMat?

Would you think that a small 50a alternator would be enough for me then?

The coyote package comes with the fly by wire throttle. Do I have to mod it to make this work in the BD?
What kind of pedals (adjustable?) are you using anyway?

You can use a HydraMat with just about any pump. I have one in my race car, with an aftermarket pump on a Miata hanger, and in a Miata fuel tank. It's awesome. I can run the tank nearly bone dry before it starts to sputter in the corners. It really is everything they say it is.

Would a 50A alternator work? Yeah, I think it would, as long as you pay attention to the electrical components you install. But then I don't think you'll be making enough power to use e-PS. And if you really run the battery low, I think it would take a while to recharge.

I installed the 80A because it satisfies my OCD. 50A is probably enough? But 80A helps me sleep better at night. I like to have extra capacity that I may never need. It makes me happy.

As for the throttle, I just bolted the stock pedal to the firewall and plugged it in. I'll try to remember to take a pic for ya.

The BDR comes with gas pedal, brake pedal, and clutch pedal already installed. They are all on one long bolt. BEFORE you install the motor, pull that long bolt out and set up the pedals the way you want them. If the engine is installed, you'll never get that bolt out.

Additionally, the fly by wire gas pedal makes it really easy to install cruise control. When you get to that point, let me know.

[bobcowan]

Here's my throttle. The pedal is cut off, and the BDR pedal is bolted to it. Really simple.

The throttle is mounted to a steel plate, which is then bolted to the firewall via existing bolts that hold the power booster in place. This is rock solid.

Of course, the firewall of the Mustang the pedal came out of is not flat. So You can't just use the existing holes as designed by ford. You'll have to modify the back of the pedal to make it mount on a flat panel. It will be obvious when you look at it.



Also, here is my cruise control. With fly by wire, it's almost a simple plug in. Unplug the harness from the pedal, and plug the CC harness between the pedal and the factory harness. Simple. Sort of. There are a couple of tricks you need to know that are not in the instructions. And I wanted to use a wireless control head. If you decide you're going to do this, let me know.

[jeffgrice]

Originally Posted by coach36

@bobcowan Man, that is already a tonload of experience you share wit me here, so thanks for that.

So I found a place to get the full swap package and they will also delete pats (security system, etc). They said that i don't need the ford control pack, and since i let it come as a 'crank-a-pallet'... what can go wrong?!

So what option did you go with in regard alternator? The mini alternator? Is 80amp fair enough? is it plug n play? Dis you made your bracket/mount and where did you put that extra pulley?

I would definitely go with electric powersteering for numerous reasons. Do you already have an eye on a system which would work for us?

Another question i have
Could you use the Backdraft gas tank or did you go with a other option, and what's your solution in regard fuel pumps?

Thank you so much!

Regarding your question on the using the BD gas tank it depends if you ordered the optional aluminum tank with topside fuel pump. If so that's the trick. If you accepted the stock plastic tank you'll need to R&R with an aluminum tank to support the FI system.

Jeff

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by jeffgrice

Regarding your question on the using the BD gas tank it depends if you ordered the optional aluminum tank with topside fuel pump. If so that's the trick. If you accepted the stock plastic tank you'll need to R&R with an aluminum tank to support the FI system.

Jeff

I'm not sure that's true. You could be right, though. I saw a picture of a plastic tank on here recently. It seems it had the outline molded in to the top to match the Tanks pump. All you had to do was cut and drill as marked. Maybe that was only that tank, as it's the only one I've ever seen.

[coach36]

awesome, thx bobcowan.
yea, but let's do the cruise control later. I have more questions to you- if you don't mind of course...

[spdbrake]

Just an idea on the engine.

I came across a salvage Cobra today with a 5.4 S/C from what appears to be 2007+ GT500. Has a manual trans as well. Might be something to consider as it would have the harness, ecu, trans, throttle, accessories and also be a forged internals motor.
https://www.copart.com/lot/29351339


GT500 motor:
https://www.motorcarsofjackson.com/i...Jackson-MS.jpg

[FredG]

I see the reference to installing electric steering on several posts so I would like to share or you might say re-share this experience. I just removed an electric steering unit from my car that was installed by the previous owner. Why? I didn't like it because it wasn't meant for the car and was not securely enough mounted. Although it made steering much easier, it didn't feel right. If you choose to install one you need to keep this in mind. There is very little room under the dash. Not an impossible job but certainly a challenge. If you choose to install one, go a high performance route for one that belongs in a car like the cobra. I am expecting to see a move towards high performance electric racks in the future that eliminate the under dash unit. This is what the one under the dash looked like in my car. Monstrous plus there was a large controller box.