Heart say 427 Head says Coyote...need advice

[MJJ]

I have been considering having a cobra built for the past several years. Time, money, other cars, family commitments always seemed to take precedent as they should.

Things are starting to line up to make this a reality rather than a fantasy.

I am not concerned with authenticity. I just want a fun, reliable cobra that sounds great and is still very streetable.

I am not a mechanic by any means. I am so impressed by the knowledge that many of you have.

So my head says get modern day reliable tech like a gen 3 coyote. I want power steering and power brakes. But I really want a more authentic sounding old school muscle car to have a completely different option in the garage. My Daily Driver is a 18 Jeep Rubicon and my weekend blaster is an Alpha 7 GTR. Both are great but neither says old school muscle.

My head says coyote but my heart still says a 351/427 with EFI. I am not all that concerned about big power. 500+.

Can someone build a highly reliable old school pushrod with EFI that has good driving manners?. Meaning it doesn’t overheat, starts easy, doesn’t buck like a bronco at low rpm and can allow for power steering/brakes combo? KEY question!!!

Or I am just better off going Coyote and living with the mustang soundtrack?

I lack the space, talent and time to be constantly wrenching. I do have a good performance shop that is in my city.

I want to get a new backdraft from Jay but I need to figure out this engine selection first.

One last question - I see most BDR owners go with the 18” wheels with the bigger brakes. I really want to stick to 15’s to keep the big tire look. Are the smaller brakes ok for a street car? I know tire selection sucks except the Avon’s but I am ok with the price of admission. If it is a mistake to go with 15’s please let me know that as well.

I admire those that need an ERA with an FE with a top loader. I wish I was John Wayne but that is more than I can handle.

Thank you for your opinions and advice.

MJJ

[fastd]

go for what you want and it sounds like you want a coyote.

10 years from now i predict coyotes will dominate new builds

bdr’s dont look unnatural with 17-18” rims. i think sub 500 hp avons are fine

[MJJ]

thanks for the feedback. I will try to clarify my thoughts....

I really want the rumble that comes from a 427. What I fear is it breakdowns and is a challenge to drive around town and leaks etc...

I am trying to understand if it possible to have your cake and eat it too. Has technology evolved to avoid the old world problems with the 427 wit the use of EFI?

If it is not possible to avoid those concerns than I will default to a coyote most likely.

Before I spend big money on getting a highly custom built cobra I would like your advice so ideally I go in with eyes wide open.

Maybe I should consider buying a used cobra with an old pushrod motor. If it is more than I want to deal with it could always resell it and likely take a 5-10k loss.

[fastd]

I have the holley sniper on my 351w for about 2 years and so far it has
worked well and much improved every day drivability. It has also been very reliable. Definitely happy that I had it added.

However, I bet you can get some rumble out of a coyote if you want it.

Either way you probably can’t go wrong.

This is what I do know: this is a toy - figure out what you really want from your toy and then get it - otherwise 10 minutes after your first drive you’ll be scheming how to make it better.

More advice: don’t rush your decision - find cars with a coyote/a rumble 427 and go see it and ask to go for a ride. Searching with real intent and ability to buy is a lot of fun.

[tkb289]

Originally Posted by fastd

..... More advice: don’t rush your decision - find cars with a coyote/a rumble 427 and go see it and ask to go for a ride. Searching with real intent and ability to buy is a lot of fun.

==========


MJJ

Great advice here from fastd … do your homework. Go to local cars & coffee or see if there are any Club Cobra members that are local and check out their cars and ask questions. You will no doubt meet some very nice people and learn a lot along the way. You will figure out pretty quickly what you do like and just as important, what you do not like.

I have a professionally built 302 with an old school Holly 650 w/manual choke, that was professionally setup and the car runs great, very responsive and does not overheat. There are a lot of factors that go into drivability, transmission gearing & rear axle ratio to name a few. The sound of the motor has a lot to do with the compression ratio, camshaft, intake & exhaust. The sound of a Cobra is wonderful part of the overall experience.

My advice is to buy / build the car of your dreams, not someone else’s. What you think & want is all that really matters, it's your Cobra.

[Alfa02]

All great advice here, as usual. That's why you came here MJJ. If I were you, get as many rides in any of our cars as you can, all the different makes as well. Having your own built is the way to get what you want, but wait time, cost, etc. Is never what you think it is, just times it by 3, and you will be close. I would buy used (Great time, market is full of them) spend a year or so, and make up your mind then. You will see if you are a Cobra guy by then, if brought right you won't lose any money, and will have a better idea, what your perfect Cobra will be And worse case, you just spent a year driving a Cobra, I can think of worse thing's to spend a year doing Cheers Tom.

[jeffgrice]

There are benefits to both coyote and 427...

If you are not interested in tinkering then I would do a carb'd 427 vs aftermarket EFI. EFI systems will require some maintenance/adjustment that anyone with a computer and FI knowledge can do but you need to find someone.

Coyote...any Ford dealer can maintain.

One note (pun) is sound. Coyote motors do sound different than a 427 R for example. Particulariliy at RPM. Hard to describe but there is a unique pitch to the sound from a Coyote that some do not like.

I do agree with the gent who said other time Coyotes will dominate so from a resale perspective you would be ok.

Thanks!

Jeff - Nostalgic Motoring

[KDubU]

Both a 427 or Coyote can be relatively low maintenance and fun to drive if you have a good engine builder.. One is old school, one new school and they do not sound the same. I have so far seen and heard eight replicas with Coyotes and they sound decent but they do not have the “thump” of a pushrod engine. Where they excel though is they are a modern efficient engine and will get better fuel mileage with ample out of the box hp. If you want the “look” of an original Cobra then it’s the stroked 351 to 427 with EFI for improved drivability and fuel efficiency. If you want zero to tinker on, reliability and better fuel mileage go Coyote. They will start right up and run at any altitude.

Saying the above, I would not want to work on Coyote though if things go wrong. They are very large engines leaving very little work space and the technology is way above my pay grade. Personally I prefer a push rod engine in a replica but that is my personal preference, it will be your car so do what you want and need.

Edited to add that 15’s look much better. Sure there are not a lot of choices but MT’s are decent and good for driving. If you track go Avons. I had Wilwoods for my 15’s and they worked great, no problems stopping.

[Mattsvtcobra]

Every time I start up my carb'd Roush 342, I smile. When I get home with my son from a cruise and we smell like we did some laps at Sebring... fuel and all, I love it. It is streetable, doesn't overheat and is a blast to drive. I have 17's, but would eventually like an additional 15" set like you are describing. With 315's on the rear, I don't have traction issues and the tires I have currently are pretty old. I quickly ease into the power... no need to mash the throttle on the streets and paint Goodyear lines (remember I have my 10 year old with me).

Would a turnkey efi 5.0 be great... can't say it wouldn't! I've had a few 4.6L Stangs and also a 2014- 5.0. They sound good, start up when you ask her to and perform. For me, as someone said above, there is something about the sound at idle and also under load that a Coyote just doesn't seem to produce compared to the other choice.

I lack the space, talent and time to be constantly wrenching. I do have a good performance shop that is in my city.

Once the engine and carb are set up, how much "wrenching" do you really feel you would have to do? With a good shop around, I think that is justifiable.

Talk to owners of both and see what lines up with your wants/needs the most.

Buy what you WANT because there would be nothing worse than you having an issue with one of the setups and then wish you had gone the other way. Good luck... and I don't think you can go wrong.

p.s. Will you have a bigger smile at a gas station when someone is asking you about your car if it's a 1965 build type of thing or modernized?

[MKS427]

My two cents.
I considered a Coyote, but I wanted that sound. You mentioned 351W/427. If you go with 408, you can use a factory block, 427 is not really recommended. If you go with a Dart block, + $2,500, then you can go 427 up to 468 without restriction. Mild 408 about 500 hp $7,500 plus engine dress, MSD, etc. vs street performance 427 about 580 hp $12,000. If you elect to go for a big cam or will experience altitude changes, you will want to go with an EFI system. You will need to decide upfront, as the cam will be different for EFI.
Power brakes aren't really necessary, but that's a personal choice. Remember, bigger cams have erratic vacuum, especially a slow speeds. Ditto for power steering. I went with electric power steering, with a Saturn Vue unit. You can adjust the assist. However, it doesn't return when you let the wheel go. It is something I wouldn't do again.
Tires, wheels, and brakes. I struggled with this decision. I wanted the nostalgic look and the big brakes. I went with 17" wheels and big brakes. Both work well, so pick what you like.
Things you didn't ask about, but might want to consider. Make sure you get a heater/defroster. I added heated seats for the wife, pretty inexpensive. Second roll bar for the wife. Raydot mirrors, the stock mirrors are very ineffective. LED headlights, I have low cost generic that look like the Harley ones at half the price. 165° beam light up the ditches next to the car. Expensive sticky tires. I had Nitto R555, they weren't sticky enough for 585 tq, so I went to Nitto NT-01. Hugh difference! Air pressure will be significantly low than what you'd expect. Ask BDR, what they recommend. I run my 17"s at 22 psi.
Good luck and enjoy
PS: SAFETY! Watch some Youtube videos of people crashing their Cobras, not to be morbid, but to witness how quick things go bad if you don't respect the car.

[bobcowan]

I've had both - a screaming 427 and a hot Coyote. Both with EFI and crank driven multiple coil ignition. Starting and driving is the same. Sound is a little bit different, but not radically different.

Aftermarket EFI's like Sniper, Haltech, and BigStuff work really well. Once tuned properly it's like driving a factory built car. Just turn the key and go. But sometimes getting them tuned is a bit of a trial. If you go that route, spend the money for a good dyno tune.

For general maintenance, I think the Coyote is slightly easier to work on. The spark plugs are MUCH easier to get to. And there's only one belt.

The Coyote does not have a stock provision for a power steering pump. Not a problem, though. It's fairly easy to add from the aftermarket.

As far as cost and difficulty rating, it's a coin toss. So get whichever makes you the happiest. Sounds like it might be the Windsor.

[olddog]

As mentioned earlier, the Coyote is physically a huge engine. The over head cams (4) make the top of the heads huge. I'm guessing, but I expect that any problem with the cams would require pulling the engine out to work on it. The variable timing on the cam shafts leave me wondering on the reliability, although I never heard of any problems. I would want to understand, if the variable valve timing can be worked on without pulling the engine.

The Coyote does not idle like a kitty cat. It has a rumble that you can hear changing as the rpms come down. Then it settles out fairly smooth, but sounds nice. When winding up through the gears it sounds great. I believe the Mustang has an X or H pipe in the exhaust. If so, it could sound very different with side pipes. With that all said, it is nothing like an old school engine sound.

The Windsor engine was a very reliable design. It is not prone to oil leaks like the FE family. From what you have said, I would steer you toward an aftermarket 4.125" bore block with priority main bearing oil system. I would have to compare the cost, but they are available with the 351 Cleveland main bearing diameter, which is better by some accounts (especially higher rpm). Stroke it to 427. Go with a hydraulic roller cam/lifters. Keep the duration on the mild side, with EFI in mind. I would be thinking around 228/234 duration with a 110 lobe separation angle. Keep the lift in the 0.550-0.575" range for reliability. Then top it with very good flowing heads to make up for the mild cam. Maybe AFR, with mild port work. Go with EFI. EFI is a huge subject in and of itself.

A Coyote is only in the 400-500 hp range. A Windsor based 427 in that Hp range with EFI is going to have very good manors driving on the street. The mild cam will have enough rumble at idle to let you know it's not your dad's station wagon.

Talk to Blykins. He builds engines every day. He tends to think a little more radical on the cam than me, but he knows more than me in the experience department - which is what counts. I'm more of a theoretical guy. Reality always seems to complicate theory, which proves theory does not take into count all the important variables.

[KDubU]

Originally Posted by olddog

As mentioned earlier, the Coyote is physically a huge engine. The over head cams (4) make the top of the heads huge. I'm guessing, but I expect that any problem with the cams would require pulling the engine out to work on it. The variable timing on the cam shafts leave me wondering on the reliability, although I never heard of any problems. I would want to understand, if the variable valve timing can be worked on without pulling the engine.

The Coyote does not idle like a kitty cat. It has a rumble that you can hear changing as the rpms come down. Then it settles out fairly smooth, but sounds nice. When winding up through the gears it sounds great. I believe the Mustang has an X or H pipe in the exhaust. If so, it could sound very different with side pipes. With that all said, it is nothing like an old school engine sound.

The Windsor engine was a very reliable design. It is not prone to oil leaks like the FE family. From what you have said, I would steer you toward an aftermarket 4.125" bore block with priority main bearing oil system. I would have to compare the cost, but they are available with the 351 Cleveland main bearing diameter, which is better by some accounts (especially higher rpm). Stroke it to 427. Go with a hydraulic roller cam/lifters. Keep the duration on the mild side, with EFI in mind. I would be thinking around 228/234 duration with a 110 lobe separation angle. Keep the lift in the 0.550-0.575" range for reliability. Then top it with very good flowing heads to make up for the mild cam. Maybe AFR, with mild port work. Go with EFI. EFI is a huge subject in and of itself.

A Coyote is only in the 400-500 hp range. A Windsor based 427 in that Hp range with EFI is going to have very good manors driving on the street. The mild cam will have enough rumble at idle to let you know it's not your dad's station wagon.

Talk to Blykins. He builds engines every day. He tends to think a little more radical on the cam than me, but he knows more than me in the experience department - which is what counts. I'm more of a theoretical guy. Reality always seems to complicate theory, which proves theory does not take into count all the important variables.

What he said! Well worded and factual. If you go Coyote you will want it make it prettier as the 3 has one ugly Aliens head thing going on.

[Tom Wells]

old,

LOL!

Your "Reality always seems to complicate theory, which proves theory does not take into count all the important variables."

seems to parallel one of my favorites: "In theory, theory and practice are the same. But not in practice."

Took a while for me to realize that :-)

Tom

[MJJ]

Thanks to all for your amazing feedback and insight. I am feeling more comfortable about the possibilities of getting an old school motor. I know Blykins has been mentioned as a top engine builder. Does he also do the EFI tuning?

I have owned multiple cars that were tuned and had the best in the industry tune those but the specialize in GT500, Mustang Cobra and GTR’s. I am not sure who the best tuner would be for this set up. Do you also get a handheld device like SCT, Cobb or Ecutek?

I am not overly concerned about $$ except getting it right the first time. My wife doesn’t grumble too much at the initial all in cost. Where I tend to hear about it is when I constantly modify after the fact especially if I change out something two or three times like exhaust or wheels so ideally I would like to get this right the first time.

I very much appreciate all of the valuable insight you all have provided.

MJJ

[letsboogie351]

https://youtu.be/RT0aiAd7W2w

Why not have the best of both worlds

[twobjshelbys]

Personally, based on your questions, I don't think a Cobra is for you. The first hint was "I'm not a mechanic". Cobras are a tinkerer's dream. There's always something loose that needs to be adjusted or replaced. Get a new GT500 Mustang.

[MJJ]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Personally, based on your questions, I don't think a Cobra is for you. The first hint was "I'm not a mechanic". Cobras are a tinkerer's dream. There's always something loose that needs to be adjusted or replaced. Get a new GT500 Mustang.

Thanks for the feedback. I asked for advice and you provided it.

That being said I Have zero interest in the new GT500.

I would pick up a Viper long before I would pick up another GT500.

[csx4910]

A 427 with 8 stack fuel injection will hardly have to be touched once tuned right. After a bit of tweaking the first 6 mo( remember this was 12 yrs ago) I have never had to touch my 8 stack on my 511 big block and it runs like stink

[Cashburn]

I just happen to have a set of 15s with Avon’s and low miles in stock 🤔