Need a better designed oil pan

[SBSerpent]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

If you don't already have them, give serious consideration to installing a set of oil pan reinforcement rails. They'll stop the deformation of the sheet metal on the pan rails that lead to leaks. They're available from a wide variety of sources:



In addition to the reinforcement rails, I also replaced the oil pan bolts with studs and 'flange nuts'. Others may disagree, but IMO the pan is easier to install that way, plus the flange nuts have one way 'teeth' where they meet the pan rails to help prevent loosening.

The original pan has the reinforcement rails, which I intend on using on the new oil pan. I also plan on using the FelPro gasket, which comes with installation studs, making the installation process much easier (and thus using the original bolts instead of studs).

[SBSerpent]

One other question. The spec sheet on my Ford Racing Motor shows a '7 qt. sump' capacity. The motor takes 9 quarts of oil. Why the disparity in oil capacity? I understand 7 quarts in the sump and 1 quart for the filter but is there and additional quart of residual oil that is dispersed throughout the motor?

[SBSerpent]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

If you don't already have them, give serious consideration to installing a set of oil pan reinforcement rails. They'll stop the deformation of the sheet metal on the pan rails that lead to leaks. They're available from a wide variety of sources:



In addition to the reinforcement rails, I also replaced the oil pan bolts with studs and 'flange nuts'. Others may disagree, but IMO the pan is easier to install that way, plus the flange nuts have one way 'teeth' where they meet the pan rails to help prevent loosening.

Can these reinforcement rails be used on pans that have the recesses in the rail or are they designed solely for use on pans with smooth rails???

[Tom Wells]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

In addition to the reinforcement rails, I also replaced the oil pan bolts with studs and 'flange nuts'. Others may disagree, but IMO the pan is easier to install that way, plus the flange nuts have one way 'teeth' where they meet the pan rails to help prevent loosening.

Cycle,

Couldn't agree more! Studs are way better than bolts for these seals.

Studs also prevent leaks from a more insidious source: bolts that are slightly too long.

If the bolts are too long, you can torque them to spec but they just bottom out in their holes so they don't give the clamping force that is needed to make the seal. You can't see it - the joint probably looks OK - or feel it, but it can allow leaks.

I also use (and recommend) studs for valve covers for the same reason.

Tom

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Tom Wells

Cycle,

Couldn't agree more! Studs are way better than bolts for these seals.

Studs also prevent leaks from a more insidious source: bolts that are slightly too long.

If the bolts are too long, you can torque them to spec but they just bottom out in their holes so they don't give the clamping force that is needed to make the seal. You can't see it - the joint probably looks OK - or feel it, but it can allow leaks.

I also use (and recommend) studs for valve covers for the same reason.

Tom

I totally agree and a complete convert to studs. My valve covers are installed with studs and flange nuts as well.

[SBSerpent]

What kit and what part number is recommended for a 351W pan that does NOT have the smooth rails and doesn't use the reinforcement rails?

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by SBSerpent

What kit and what part number is recommended for a 351W pan that does NOT have the smooth rails and doesn't use the reinforcement rails?

This is what it says at https://www.fordracingparts.com/part/M-6674-351 (emphasis mine):

Precision laser cut steel rails help minimize the chance of oil pan leaks on 351W based small block Ford Engines. These reinforcement rails are designed to be used with flat flange oil pans and one-piece silicone rubber oil pan gasket (PN M-6710-A351). These reinforcement rails are used on all Ford Performance 427-460 CID 351W based small block Crate engines

I know what it says, but I have no reason to believe these wouldn't work on a pan that doesn't have smooth / flat rails. I did a bunch of Internet searching and couldn't find any other rails, so it's either these or nothing.

Again, don't use bolts, use studs and nuts. I went to a local bolt supply and purchased the appropriate length 'set screws' and flange nuts, and put the set screws in with blue Loctite.

[SBSerpent]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

This is what it says at https://www.fordracingparts.com/part/M-6674-351 (emphasis mine):

Precision laser cut steel rails help minimize the chance of oil pan leaks on 351W based small block Ford Engines. These reinforcement rails are designed to be used with flat flange oil pans and one-piece silicone rubber oil pan gasket (PN M-6710-A351). These reinforcement rails are used on all Ford Performance 427-460 CID 351W based small block Crate engines

I know what it says, but I have no reason to believe these wouldn't work on a pan that doesn't have smooth / flat rails. I did a bunch of Internet searching and couldn't find any other rails, so it's either these or nothing.

Again, don't use bolts, use studs and nuts. I went to a local bolt supply and purchased the appropriate length 'set screws' and flange nuts, and put the set screws in with blue Loctite.

What the Ford Racing website makes sense to me. The reinforcing rails work best on a pan with flat rails. This way, the clamping force of the bolts or nuts is unilaterally distributed along the length of the rail. If you use these reinforcing rails on a pan that is NOT flat and has those 'protrusions' between each fastener hole, then the rail is never going to sit flat against the pan rail at those fastener locations - it is going to contact the pan only at the raised 'protrusions'. For this reason, I hesitate to use the reinforcing rails on a pan with rails that are not flat.

I do however, plan on using studs with nuts. Did you Loctite every stud where it threaded into the block?

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by SBSerpent

What the Ford Racing website makes sense to me. The reinforcing rails work best on a pan with flat rails. This way, the clamping force of the bolts or nuts is unilaterally distributed along the length of the rail. If you use these reinforcing rails on a pan that is NOT flat and has those 'protrusions' between each fastener hole, then the rail is never going to sit flat against the pan rail at those fastener locations - it is going to contact the pan only at the raised 'protrusions'. For this reason, I hesitate to use the reinforcing rails on a pan with rails that are not flat.

I do however, plan on using studs with nuts. Did you Loctite every stud where it threaded into the block?

Yes, blue Loctite on every stud before threading it into the block.

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Precision laser cut steel rails help minimize the chance of oil pan leaks on 351W based small block Ford Engines. These reinforcement rails are designed to be used with flat flange oil pans and one-piece silicone rubber oil pan gasket (PN M-6710-A351). These reinforcement rails are used on all Ford Performance 427-460 CID 351W based small block Crate engines

You would want to use these on a flat rail pan because it's not stiff enough to hold it's shape. I think some stock pans are still like that. All the aftermarket pans I'v used have rolled beads in the flange to make them stiffer. Although you could certainly use the steel rail supports, there's no need to.

Some silicone gaskets have a metal support ring around each bolt hole. If you use one of those, it's almost impossible to over-torque the bolts/studs.

[SBSerpent]

Finally got my Aviaid pan in and loving the additional ground clearance! Followed the recommendations - swapped out the bolts and used studs. Made the installation so much easier.

Here's a little idea that I came up with that helped with installation. I used the one piece FelPro gasket with the steel reinforcement insert along the length of the rail. I didn't use the installation pegs that came with the gasket. Instead, I put a very small dab of RTV in alternating holes and the at the four holes at the corners and I let that cure overnight - just enough to create additional resistance against the stud when the gasket is pushed up against the block. This held the gasket securely in place around the entire perimeter while I installed the pan.

[Grey 65]

I probably have the lowest street legal BDR and I have been running the AVIAID Daytona Coupe pan from them for a few years now.. P/N 155-55363

I have never had an issue.

[SBSerpent]

Originally Posted by Grey 65

I probably have the lowest street legal BDR and I have been running the AVIAID Daytona Coupe pan from them for a few years now.. P/N 155-55363

I have never had an issue.

How much oil do you put in when you do an oil change? Trying to figure that out because the Aviaid website says that the 55363 pan is the 55361 6qt GT-40 pan but without the notch in the sump to accommodate the larger starter on the GT-40. As such, the Daytona Coupe pan (55363) can hold an additional half quart, bringing the sump capacity to 6 1/2 quarts. Running the WIX 51515 filter (the larger sized filter) will add another half quart(?). So, this comes out to about '7ish' quarts at each oil change? Just trying to figure out the total capacity.

[Grey 65]

Originally Posted by SBSerpent

How much oil do you put in when you do an oil change? Trying to figure that out because the Aviaid website says that the 55363 pan is the 55361 6qt GT-40 pan but without the notch in the sump to accommodate the larger starter on the GT-40. As such, the Daytona Coupe pan (55363) can hold an additional half quart, bringing the sump capacity to 6 1/2 quarts. Running the WIX 51515 filter (the larger sized filter) will add another half quart(?). So, this comes out to about '7ish' quarts at each oil change? Just trying to figure out the total capacity.

To be honest I am not sure it is between 7.0 and 8.0. Before I installed the pan I had to cut the dipstick since it a universal length. So I mounted the dipstick to the pan cutting as required. Then I filled pan with water and marked dipstick for low and high. I then drained the pan, dried the pan and then installed on the motor.

[SBSerpent]

Haha. I went through all of the same steps exactly!

I'm counting on around 7ish quarts total in the system.

[cbreez]

Kevco 9qt pan...excellant.