Cobras, RIP?

[Traveller]

Nevermind, I read more and found it.

[speedraser]

Brett,
FWIW, all Boxsters have a rollbar from the factory.

Hal,
Sorry to hear about your community's losses. Am I correct in assuming that these were not Cobra crashes (local community rather than ClubCobra)?

[Excaliber]

Seems to me the early BMW Z3's came without a roll bar. As do most manufacturers convertibles.

Ernie

[Tom T.]

Ernie,

The windshield frame on most modern convertibles is designed to support the entire weight of the car upside down. Whether that's always the case, I don't know, but I know that the windshield frame on a Cobra is challenged to support the glass windshield all by itself.

TT

[ELGEE]

None of us bought/built these cars because they are safe------
they were NEVER safe nor good handling---BUT there is all the rest that goes with them that makes us crazy for them.All we can do is be careful and realize the limitations- both us and the car.
400+ HP and a 95"of wheel base don't add up to complacency.I
KNOW this is a fact !! :-) !!! Never lift off on an off camber corner !!

[Excaliber]

TT, I see your point, and especially true with the Cobra! But I suspect the number of convertibles with "weak" windshields is greater than those with strong ones! Within a year or two of production on the BMW Z3, they opted for roll bars.

Ernie

[Tom T.]

Ernie,

I guess I'm lost on what exactly it is you're trying to establish. It's one thing to say that you choose to drive your car on the track and accept the risk (by the way, as a lawyer, I've always been impressed by how many people, and their estates, were supposedly willing to "accept the risk" until they got hurt or worse, then all of a sudden everyone got sued and tried to settle), but quite another to note there are modern convertibles without rollbars, as if that somehow puts the safety of a Cobra with a single hoop in a similar ballpark with them. It doesn't. Look at the rake of most modern convertibles' windshield frames and the thickness of those pillars--it's beyond dispute that the product liability experts decided some time ago that the windshield frames/A pillars had to be designed to provide some rollover protection for the driver and passenger. Adding "rollbars," such as those on the Boxter or BMW Z3-4, doesn't mean that the windshield frames somehow got weaker, it means that they went even further to protect the occupants. Far better protection (by virtue of all of the modern design features referred to in the waiver I quoted above) than a Cobra with a hoop bar.

I do agree with you that each of us has to make up his own mind as to what level of risk he is willing to accept. Make no mistake about it, however, if these incidents continue we'll all suffer.

TT

[CSX 4039]

What I want to know from the guys who race hard in a Cobra is- How do you know when the leaning to the left or right that you are doing is caused by 1960's suspension technology, and there is no way in the world you are going to roll, (even though it kinda feels like it), if you are used to modern sports cars, and, when ARE you going to emminently roll? I guess that is a dumb, poorly worded, rather unanswerable question, but I just thought I'd ask...
I guess the answer is take a weekend course. Any other ways? Can you roll a Cobra with a fairly hard turn at say 40-60 miles an hour on flat road, or does it just feel like it, and actually, there is no way? Will the tires lose grip at that speed or will it potentially roll?

[coyled]

Brett, the ones that I am familiar with as far as rolling goes at least on the track are one of the following. The cobra gets sideways in an off camber or downhill section, the tires bite, and you roll. Or, you go off track and hit something then roll. If its flat and the run off area is flat your chances of rolling are unlikely. Also, with less sticky street tires or dot tires, the odds are better that the tires won't bite at the wrong time and you will slide instead of rolling. On the street its easy to roll it. Just hit something, a curb, tree, ditch, pole, pick your poison. The last 2 things I want to do in mine is brake or lift off the throttle in a corner, both upset the chassis in my cobra. But, lifting and braking are the 2 safest things that you instinctively do from the day you started driving. Do it in a cobra and you will spin. Do it in a down hill and off camber corner and you can roll it. Scott

[RedBarchetta]

Originally posted by coyled
The last 2 things I want to do in mine is brake or lift off the throttle in a corner, both upset the chassis in my cobra. But, lifting and braking are the 2 safest things that you instinctively do from the day you started driving. Do it in a cobra and you will spin. Do it in a down hill and off camber corner and you can roll it. Scott

Awesome discussion! But please tell me how modern Bilstein damping components, coupled with much improved (Wilwood, for example) brake systems, don't make these maneuvers more solid and safe?

[Lew Ledyard]

You guys are making me feel like I don't want to drive my car.

[Excaliber]

A driving school is not going to keep you from "rolling" your Cobra. Maybe, for some, it would encourage even MORE speed on a race track that comes from the "confidence" gained in class.

My point about convertibles is I would not trust the windshield area, as strong as it might be, to protect ME in a roll over. At best it offer about the same level of protection as a single hoop roll bar on a Cobra.

The "street" Cobras didn't have a roll bar. NONE of my other english cars (MG, Austin Healey, Triumph's) had roll bars (and no way the windshield was gonna help)!

So the newer cars have a stronger windshield, the Bimmers now have a roll bar as well. If you roll a convertible it's STILL a "roll of the dice".

If you choose to drive a Cobra on the track and drive it HARD and FAST, it's a roll of the dice. I've seen several FFR spec racers with a FULL roll cage, same for the "serious" drag racing Cobras. If you haven't got a "serious" roll cage, you shouldn't be doing "serious" racing.

But we know that anything can happen anytime, anywhere, street or track. WTIHOUT even driving "hard", that is the risk you have to be willing to accept if you drive a "convertible". Simply put, you have LESS protection than a "hardtop" offers.

UNLIKE normal convertibles, the Cobra "mind set" tends to foster a "let's go faster attitude". SO, drive responsibly, accept the risk or build yourself a roll cage, your call.

Ernie

[Tom T.]

Ernie, no doubt about it, old cars, English or not, don't have the same design improvements as modern cars, including the windshield frames. I still remember the warning in the manual for my old TR4, that advised tightening all the nuts at least once a month. At one point, my electrical system would discharge when I turned one way, and charge like crazy when I turned the other. Finally figured out there was a hairline crack in the generator mount, which allowed the belt to tighten or loosen, depending on which direction I was turning. Sure was a fun car, though. Everyone should own at least one Triumph, MG, etc.

TT

[RallySnake]

Tom,

This is a very educational topic. You have hit on a subject that has concerned me for a while. Part of the thrill of the Cobra is it's unforgiving nature. I have spun my car out many times, mostly on autocross courses, but also in test sessions in parking lots. That's the ONLY way you will find out what the limits are. If you're not willing to do this, then you should not push the car hard anywhere!

My Navigator was a little concerned on one rally when I started to pass another car on a two lane road leading to a hard left hand turn. I had plenty of time, UNTIL, I saw a motorcycle coming from the opposite direction at high speed. I had to hit the gas harder as I passed the car to give me more time to brake. We hit the turn at about 70 and the rear slid about a foot until the power made the tires bite. After the rally, he bragged about he incident to others and I knew that I had not lost his trust.

Paul

[daltondavid]

All of this is great stuff and something for us Non Owners to ponder. Reality! I have been Riding Harley Davidsons for 22 years and Dirt Bikes before that. I have been in One Major Wreck and several minor incidents. Many near death misses that actually stick out more than the minor incidents. But I still enjoy riding. I do not go as fast as I once did. I did know a Custom Guitar Builder in Philadelphia by the name of Dale Bluebond. He had a Cobra and let the wife drive. Well she did a u turn on Kelly drive and They got Broad sided. Both of them Died right then and there. That was ten years ago. I have also known many Riders to die on Bikes as well. I believe when your number is up, it is time to go where the big guy wants you to go. No choice. I also believe in not being foolish and risking your life in an over extreme fashion either. What I do get from all of this is that Cobra Driving School sounds better and better to me.

[Doug Axelrod]

high performance driving school and open track with cobra-savy instructors are simply invaluable. (and fun)

[RallySnake]

Doug,

The high performance driving school may be good. But, as Lew proved, open tracking without learning low speed control, can be dangerous. SCCA Solo2 events rarely allow you to exceed 50 mph. The tracks are usually that tight. This is a very good place to start. Learn to master your car through four wheel drifts, in second gear, at 30 to 40 mph, THEN think about running open tracks.

My car surprised me several times with snap oversteer on Solo2 tracks and I feel very fortunate that there was nothing to hit but rubber cones. On a couple of runs, on hot days, my rear tires got so hot that traction was reduced by 50%. On one Solo2 event at Riverside raceway (I know I'm dating myself), I lost it big time on a high speed turn and because there was plenty of space available, just kept the hammer down and did a complete smoky doughnut. These are lessons that could be impossible or deadly to learn on a full track or the street.

Even though my Cobra has spun on many occasions, I have never felt that it would flip over in a horizontal curve. I have no roll bar installed, currently and really feel no need for one. However, when I see that a vertical curve will cause the wheels to leave the ground, I have a death grip on that steering wheel. It CANNOT be allowed to move off-center the slightest amount. This is the one area where control can be lost so easily.

Lew Lenyard, be afraid, it'll keep you safe. The Cobra is a coiled monster waiting to strike! And there is nothing else (on four wheels) to compare with the thrill of driving it fast. I try to maintain a healthy fear of my car. That and my Guardian Angel keep me alive.

Paul

[coyled]

Paul, I don't think living in fear of anything is helpful. Fear can cause you to make bad decisions at exactly the wrong time. I think your better off being educated at driving schools, asking about the specific track and the corners that are more dangerous because they are off camber, bumpy, have walls, ditches, etc.. Be slower at those places where the penalty is higher. You always have to have a plan. I agree that the autocross idea is a good one. It should help you learn car controll in a safe enviroment. But, I would also say that a cobra which is pretty nuetrol in an autocross at low speeds will likely oversteer on a race track at higher speed corners. If the tail comes out quickly at low speeds, it could be a nightmare at high speeds. My cobra has a low speed push but is really good at high speed corners. If I get rid of the low speed push, it oversteers at higher speeds. Get instruction and some safety items if you are going to drive the cobra on the street or track. It can only help. Scott

[casaleenie]

Originally posted by Tom T.

. Everyone should own at least one Triumph, MG, etc.

TT [/b]

Tom,

Owning a British Leyland car falls under the catagory of "cruel and unusual punishment".
I think half the mileage on my MGA was from pushing it and a lot of miles that didn't register because it was being retrieved on a flat bed truck...

[RallySnake]

Scott,

From your post, it's clear that you have spent some time sorting out your car and know it's handling characteristics very well. I do not think this is true of most new Cobra owners. From previous discussions on this board and others, I have read cases where people are encouraged to hurry up and put your car together so we can do a track day. My point is that those folks should be encouraged to start slowly and work up to track days. High speed events are a bad place to learn your car's handling quirks.

I was very glad to read Steve's (mulv) post, here. He exactly expressed my feelings. I've run the Jim Russell school at Silverstone, UK in Formula Fords. I've run various sports cars in all kinds of events. I've got a brand new, two foot high trophy for winning the ITN Route 66 Rally two weeks ago. However, I have little desire to run open tracks in my Cobra. I still maintain a healthy fear of it. I KNOW it will kill me if I get complacent. That's why I feel the heart rate increase when I slide into the seat and turn the key. That's why I have a big grin on my face after coming home from a run. I pull into the garage and turn off the key knowing full well, "I cheated death again!"

Paul