Engine Oils!

[scootter]

In talking with an engine builder, I was told that almost all oil makers have remove Zinc ( I think) from their engine oil which is causing premature wear and failure on cams and lifters. He is saying to put a can of STP oil treament in at every oil change. I did post the on another site and they recommend using oil that is about $40 per gallon. I think I would rather buy a can of STP if that works.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Are talking about a new engine with zero run time on it or an engine that has "some" mileage on it?????????

David

[scootter]

From what I gathered, it is any engine. The new oil don't make the film between the moving parts like the old oil use too. And high performance engines have looser tolerances then new vehicle production engines.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I'm cetainly no chemical engineer,but here's my take on the subject;

On any new engine for brake-in I like to use a break-in additive...........

Once it is properly broken-in,then I think any good oil for that engine application is fine.............My present company car turned 281,000+ miles today and has had nothing but Shell Rotella T 15/40 in it since day one and runs great,never had a vavle cover off or any internal work done on the motor........so the present day oils must work pretty good..........I have been using Shell Rotella T 15/40 for about 10 years now in everything I own form my riding mover to my 65 Mustang that I drive on the street and track.....................

The company car I had before this one had Castrol 10/30 in it for 250,000+ miles with no problems what-so-ever.........

I think that the major name brands are all good oils and any should be fine in your engine,if you are still unsure,just add a can of STP with every oil change for added insurance..............

David

[427sharpe]

WOW...thats the ONLY time I have ever heard an engine builder recc'd STP....STP is basically a motor honey made to THICKEN oil and stop it from going past worn rings...'stop smoke' is the primary function.
The modern oils are head and shoulders above ANYTHING the 60/70's motor foundries ever dreamed of. The newest line of GL spec oils have to meet aeration, anti-sludging and shear strength rules far in excess of a street motor requirement. This is why the mfgs can say it's OK to chane oil every 5,000 miles instead of 3. Some even say 7,500 now. I run Royal Purple in my Cobras and my GT350, but the family cars get 5w30 Valvoline. I would say that ANY national brand oil (Valvoline, Castrol, etc..) would be fine WITHOUT any additives. The STP may actually HARM the system in the long run.

[Bob In Ct]

No offense to anyone out there but, I would be very hesitant about using additives in today's oils. I just have to think that Mobil, Castrol, Quaker State and Pennzoil know how to make a quality product.

Also, making the oil thicker than it has to be reduces oil flow and increases stresses on distributor gears.

Bob

[cbmax]

My engine builder recommended Crane Super Lube Break in Concentrate. It is for breaking in cams and lifters.

He actually recommended using it with every oil change.

CB

[Cal Metal]

It is difficult to argue with anything made by Crane, especially in the area of camshafts. They have very few peers; an outstanding companies that has been at the top of their game for 40 years.

[SCOBRAC]

Use regular 10/40 or 20/50 for break in and synthetic after that. If you want a good additive there are none finer than:

http://www.lucasoil.com/

[elric]

There's a great oil article on the Boss 302 registry website from an engineer in the oil business. The general consensus is break it in on petroleum then switch to synthetic. If your car has no catalytic convertor the best oil to run would be synthetic motorcycle oil as it has the highrst amounts of phosphorus and zinc.

[Dennis Kelley]

Castrol 10W 30 on my 86 mustang GT good for 300,000 miles. Yes 300000 miles. I run Mobil one in my other cars but the cobra and the 86 get the castrol. cheap and effective. I don't buy into engine oil additives nonsense. JMO P.S. My dad helped me buy the mustang as a graducation gift for myself from college in 1986 best damn car I have ever owned. Oil changed religiously at 3000 miles.

later


Dennis Kelley

[Anthony]

Originally posted by scootter
In talking with an engine builder, I was told that almost all oil makers have remove Zinc ( I think) from their engine oil which is causing premature wear and failure on cams and lifters. He is saying to put a can of STP oil treament in at every oil change. I did post the on another site and they recommend using oil that is about $40 per gallon. I think I would rather buy a can of STP if that works.

I don't believe STP has the Zinc additive, as I think it is only a viscosity enhancer, i.e. thick petroleum.

You can buy a zinc additive from GM parts that will replace/restore the zinc that is critically needed for parts that do alot of rubbing. I'd probably use that, and not STP or cam break in lube.

[Anthony]

Comments by a GM Engineer taken from a yamaha motorcycle web site.

“I am a newbie to this site...LOL...but not a newbie. 33 years at GM and counting....the last 20 in engine development. If you want to see what I've been working on the last few years score the May issue of Hotrod Magazine and read the article on the Supercharged Northstar for the STS-V/XLR-V. “

A. Why change your oil ?

Keep in mind that there are a lot of reasons to change the oil. (1) Oil oxidizes with time and temperature.
(2) Oil gets contaminated with combustion by-products, oil gets contaminated with soot from blowby, oil gets contaminated with fuel and water...particularly during cold starts, acids form in the oil, oil gets contaminated with dust/dirt/debris, and the anti-oxidants/anti-acids/detergents/dispersant additives deplete with time and engine revolutions. (3) The anti-wear additive in the oil (the "zinc" or ZDP) gets depleted with engine revolutions,

(1) Synthetic oil addresses the oxidation as it will handle higher temperatures but that is about the only advantage of synthetic. If oxidation were the only reason to change the oil then synthetics would have an advantage in terms of life or extending the drain intervals. Unfortunately, oxidation due to temperature is RARELY the determining factor for the drain interval so any advantage synthetics might have in this area are moot.

(2) The water from combustion byproducts/blowby combines with the sulfur in the fuel in blowby to form sulfuric acid over time, so oil acidity slowly increases with time and miles, and synthetic oil does nothing different to prevent this. You have to change the oil before the anti-acids in the oil additive package are overwhelmed.

(3) Synthetic has the same amounts of ZDP as conventional oil, which is depleted over time.

So, in short, using synthetic does NOTHING to allow a longer drain interval. As compared to conventional oil, synthetic has the same problem with fuel and water contamination, same problems with other contaminates including soot, same problem with acid buildup, ZDP depletion, etc.... All reasons why synthetic oil does NOT allow longer drain intervals. I would recommend sticking to the recommended drain intervals even if you use synthetic oil.

As an aside, you will find that "racing" has little to do with passenger cars or street bike engines. Just because something works on racing cars or is used by racing teams does not mean it is good or applicable to everyday use on the street. The marketers like to make you THINK that racing means good but that is just marketing and an image. Look at the facts, first.

Like I said, the synthetics are excellent products. You certainly are not going to hurt anything using them... Just be aware that in most all conventional engines in cars and street bikes the use of synthetics is just not required. The areas that synthetics are "better" is far outside the normal operating range of the oil so that area or advantage is just not used nor needed.

My main reason for posting on this thread was not to run down synthetics at all...just make sure that people understand that the idea of extended drain intervals with synthetics is not really true and not something that they should be fooled into believing. "Extended" means a lot of different things to different people. If someone reads Amsoils BS and thinks that they can run their FJR 25K between oil changes they are being sadly mislead. In explaining why synthetics do not necessarily provide additional service life it is hard to not touch on their limitations and compare them to conventional oil.


The data that I see indicates that, under normal use, conventional oil functions perfectly well. When I see an engine run for 300 hours at full throttle/max load on an engine dyno with conventional oil and then at teardown the bearings are not even touched and other wear surfaces are fine it is hard to understand just how much "better" synthetic oil could have run....LOL LOL I have seen LOTS and LOTS of engines run like this and somehow, miraculously, the engines always look fine with conventional oil. And we don't even add Lucas or Slick50 or ZMax or ???? LOL LOL

[Anthony]

B. GM Oil Life Monitors

I worked extensively with the GM Research oil chemists that developed the GM Oil Life Monitor and know for a fact that it doesn't change anything in the model for cars with synthetic oil from the factory.
I agree that it is possible, under certain conditions, to run the oil past 15,000 or even 20,000 miles in passenger cars with the oil not being "used up" or "worn out"...but...that is assuming no safety factor at all in the oil life and it is under the best of conditions. And...the testing that proved this was NOT synthetic. If the oil is being used under conditions that allow an extremely long change interval then conventional oil will last just as long as synthetic under those conditions.

The other thing to keep in mind with oil drain intervals is that different engines have distinctly different oil lifes. The life of the oil in the engine is VERY dependent on the engine design, features in the engine and what is expected of the oil. As an example from the engines that I work on, the 93-99 Northstar engine would have a maximum oil life of 7500 miles. This was bumped up to 12,500 miles with the redesign of the engine in 2000 model year. This is the maximum oil life under optimum operating conditions, not the recommended change interval all the time. The difference in the engines is that the 2000 engine has rolling element cam followers instead of direct acting lifters. The rubbing element or direct acting lifters take the anti-wear ZDP out of the oil much faster and the direct acting tappets are far more dependent on oil quality and the presence of the ZDP to live. Oil that would be depleted of ZDP in the earlier engines in 7500 miles is still serviceable at 12,500 miles in the newer engines.

Older passenger car engines had rubbing element lifters, rubbing element rocker arms, pushrod tips, distributor gears that drove the oil pump, spur gear oil pumps, etc... Those engines needed a lot of antiwear protection and used it up quickly. 3000 mile oil changes on those engines with the oils of the day were probably stretching it under some conditions. Modern engines have gerotor oil pumps, no distributor gears, rolling element everything in the valve gear....they do not chew up the oil nor need high levels of anti-wear additives. Plus, the improved PCV systems keep the oil cleaner.

Motorcycle engines, like the FJR, still have rubbing element, direct acting tappets that need lots of ZDP and take the ZDP out of the oil fairly quickly. Synthetic has no advantage nor makes any difference in this respect. In addition, the oil lubricates the gear box where the gear mesh shears down the oil viscosity and takes even more ZDP out of the oil. Wet clutch action contaminates the oil also and is another source of ZDP depletion.

Since the basic model for oil life involves the linear depletion of ZDP in the oil due to metal-to-metal contact at lifter interfaces, gear interfaces, etc. I would guess that a motorcycle engine degrades oil life much more rapidly than a car engine...probably twice as fast. Also, motorcycle engines turn twice the RPM of car engines for any given maneuver so that multiplies the oil degradation by 2. The oil life algorithms (that have proven to accurately model engine oil life beyond a shadow of a doubt) actually count engine revolutions to establish the basic oil decay rate...so...the more revolutions the greater the degradation. This linear decay rate is multiplied by various factors that account for the oil operating temperature, ambient conditions, soak times, run times, engine load and many others. Short trips in cold weather will add considerable deterioration because of the effects of contamination by gas and water. Since cold weather operation is not much of a factor with bikes and they do tend to get thoroughly warmed up each ride (most people don't "housewife" a bike on short trips and many stops) I would guess that the main factor in oil life with bikes is the depletion of the anti-wear additives....which would be the same with synthetics or conventional oil.

C. ZDP Facts

The thing that is always touchy about oil change intervals is just how low do you let the ZDP concentration get before you consider the oil used up..?? ZDP is sacrificial and must be present at the wear site to work, so....as the concentration depletes there is less and less ZDP and the available molecules of ZDP are spread out more and more and may not be where you want them to be. On a long trip, there is little worry about too hot of an operating temperature, or contamination by blowby (the oil is always warm) so the ZDP depletion is the issue. On the GM oil life monitor, if ZDP depletion is the only determining factor, we typically use a safety factor of around 2 for the maximum oil life. So....if the oil change interval would count out to 12,500 miles, the oil could really go 25,000 before the ZDP were COMPLETELY depleted. You really don't want to run that far or push the ZDP to zero but it is an example of the safety factor in the calculation so I am sure that Yamaha does accordingly. My logic here is that Yamaha is not publishing an oil change interval that would take into account only long trip riding like this so there must be additional allowance for that type of riding. Plus, I know that under that type of usage, where the ZDP depletion is the determining factor the change intervals I am familiar with (the 12,500 miles) still has considerable safety factor so I suspect that there is little risk with a good oil to running the FJR to 8K on a long trip.

ZDP is a compound with Zinc and Phospates in it. It is an excellent anti-wear additive. Trouble with ZDP and gasoline engines is that it takes out the catalytic converter. Any oil the engine burns passes the zinc and phophates into the exhaust and both will contaminate and poison the cat. So....the whole emission compliance of gasoline engines depends on the catalytic converter so protecting it is primary.. That is why ZDP is minimized in gasoline engine oils and the drive is to push the concentrations even lower. That is why modern gas engines have features that I mentioned (like roller followers, roller rocker arms, no spur gears, no distributor gears, etc..) that do not require much anti-wear protection (the hydro-dynamic bearing film formed by the oil is adequate for those devices) and thus do not deplete the anti-wear additives in the oil.

Want ZDP...???....go to a GM parts counter and buy a can of GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS). It is straight 40 weight oil highly fortified with ZDP. EOS has about 10 times the ZDP of normal engine oil so it is an excellent additive to "spike" the oil with ZDP for breakin or to avoid further wear in a marginal lube situation. ZDP is expensive and has to be blended into the oil with heat so it isn't something that can just be eyedroppered into the oil. But you can use an oil that is high in ZDP (like EOS) to spike the oil in the crankcase. BTW...you don't get any ZDP in any of the aftermarket snakeoil additives.

Too much ZDP can also play havoc with wet clutches so there is a balance as to how much you want in the oil.

ZDP is, in effect, an "anti-flux" agent. Where a fluxing agent would clean and help a weld form.....ZDP "fouls" the weld that is the wear agent and prevents micro-welding and the resulting material transfer and scuffing and scoring. Point being that the ZDP MUST be there when any metal-to-metal contact occurs at a surface asperity that breaks thru the thickness of the oil film. If the oil film is thick enough then there is no metal-to-metal contact and the ZDP is not needed. So, the concentration of ZDP must be great enough to ensure that it is exactly where it is needed at the time it is needed.

Engines ran for decades back in the early 1900's on oil that was rated SA....so called "virgin" motor oil.....i.e..NO anti-wear additives what so ever. And the engines lived fine to some extent. Living proof that oil could run for long change intervals if ZDP depletion were the only issue. BTW...you can still buy this at the dollar store...read the can....SA rated...no additives....good for door hinges and keeping the dust down on the dirt road.

It just depends on how comfortable you are with the situation and what the chances are that the particular engine you have will "need" the anti-wear protection to live.

The only answer I have for you is a statistically oriented example. If you ran a large population of engines for 10,000 mile change intervals they would likely all make it fine. If you ran an identical group for 20,000 mile change intervals maybe 3 or 4% would fail. If you ran them for 30,000 mile change intervals, maybe 6 or 8 percent will fail. ETC.... You could NEVER change the oil for 100K and some of them would make it. Would this prove you never need to change the oil...??? People tend to look at ONE example of an engine running long change intervals and deduce that it is fine. NOT. As a manufacturer we look at millions of vehicles and engines and the statistical evidence of when the engines are going to need lubrication service to determine the change intervals, acceptable anti-wear limits and oil life monitor degradation factors. A lot of this is hard to argue with as it is extremely difficult to get enough statistical evidence to make a hard and fast recommendation...so...we tend to be very conservative. Is an engine likely to live thru 20K change intervals...probably... It might just be sqeeking by....but it might make it. Poor gamble in my book unless you have some VERY detailed and precise oil analysis basis and an oil life monitoring system to guage the operating conditions.

All this is why the issue of oil and change intervals and such is so interesting and always promotes a discussion. There is just no hard and fast rule to go by for all engines and all situations ....

[Anthony]

C. Comments about Conventional Oil

Understand, also, that any modern oil that meets the SL or SM API performance requirements have quite a bit of synthetic content in them. Any multivis oil that meets SM performance specs must have a synthetic polymer Viscosity Improver package or it wouldn't pass. So, any modern oil is a synthetic "blend" as some companies like to market and charge extra for....LOL.

The current engine oils for gasoline engines (rated GF3 or GF4 in the starburst symbol) contain synthetic friction modifiers that improve fuel economy. That is in all oils sold as "gasoline engine" oils and are the things that you want to avoid in your wet-clutch bike. Some of the "fuel economy" attributes of the oils get mixed up in the addition of the friction modifiers.

Since the performance classifications have advanced to the current level of SM that (SG) is a long ways behind the performance capability of current oils. All of the recent development in oils has been around less deposits, viscosity improvers that do not break down and cause ring belt deposits, and high temperature (above 300) performance I suspect the only reason that they do not utilize the most current SM performance rating is to avoid any confusion with oils rated SL or SM that would ALSO be an SG3 or SG4 oil that would have the friction modifiers.

The auto companies wanted to use oils with friction modifiers for fuel economy testing improvement (on the EPA test) but the EPA would not allow it as they maintained that the customer in the field would not use that oil. So, the auto companies worked with API and the oil companies to devise the parrallel standard called SG-3 and the new starburst symbol that says "gasoline engines". The parrallel standard would utilize the API performance rating (such as SJ or SL or SM) AND it would require fuel economy enhancing additives. By creating this new rating and getting the oil companies to utilize it it insured that the "fuel efficient" oils would be available on the shelf.

In the meantime, oils that still met the improving performance requirements, such as SL, but did not have the fuel economy friction modifiers were relegated to "diesel oil" status. The performance standards such as SL are still the same so any oil rated like that is guaranteed to be pretty high quality. I think Yamaha is just hedging their bets against people using the fuel economy oils by specing the lower, SG, standard since non of the fuel ecnomy oils were around when SG was in vogue.
I hate to start a flamer with a direct contradiction but 240 F is NOT hot oil. 240 is a nice temperature for oil...conventional or otherwise. Conventional oils from the mid 90's on are perfectly capable of living for long periods of time (hundreds of hours) at 240 F. Oils of the earlier era of the 70's might not like 240 ????? but current SL and SM rated oils are perfectly fine at temperatures up to 270/280 F continuous operation.... We "allow" conventional SL and SM rated oils to run at continuous 305 for hours on end on dyno and engine cooling tests with absolutely no problem whatsoever. Be carefull of looking at oxidation rates and such published by the competition and by synthetic oil marketers. They tend to take the first uptick in oxidation rates as a "critical" point and predict doom and gloom and oxidized oil at 240 and such. Just not the case. I have run a dyno car engine making WELL over 300 HP at continous full load/full throttle/6200 RPM with conventional oil at 300 degrees for 100 hours and the oil performed fine and the engine was fine at teardown. Conventional oil just does not fall apart like the synthetic marketers tend to predict. I would consider it pefectly normal for conventional oil to run at 270 or 280 for extended periods of time. Based on the oil life monitor algorithm work done at those temps and the extensive oil sampling taken at those temps the oil is just starting to kick up in oxidation rates at those temps and above 280 the oxidation factors start to increase to decrement the oil life algorithm more dramatically.

As a case in point....my old 78 XS1100....ran it's whole life on conventional oil.....engine partially blocked by extended sport fairing and air cooled to boot. Started with the "sure death" 10W40 SE and SF oils of the late 70's and early 80's. That engine could push the oil temp above 300 on occasion running hard in hot hot weather. I would stop and stick a cooking thermometer into the oil plug hole to check it. It DID stick the rings at about 75,000 miles due to the deposit formation problem mentioned earlier with the old 10W40 oils. Tore the jugs off, cleaned the ring grooves out and reassembled. Nothing else done. Same timing chain, etc. It is still running fine at 108,000 miles. Still is quiet, no lower end noise. Pulls easily to redline. Trans works great and clutch does not slip at all. Starting to get a little piston slap when cold but not something to complain about. The conventional oils back in the SE and SF days were nothing like the current oils...and that engine lived fine on those oils with no synthetic ever near it. I have torn apart every oil filter that came off that engine and they are always clean with minimal particles and such. What particles do show up are ferrous bits from the trans it appears. That bike has been ridden reasonably hard, lots of fast cruising in Canada and out west. Lots of hot weather. Two trips up the Alcan and several times in Death Valley so it has seen some extreme conditions. If conventional oil were that bad it would have died a long time ago.

In your case, with a Ecotec in a passenger car, highly unlikely. Assuming you are talking passenger car use, not taking it to the track for lapping sessions, etc.... synthetic is pointless. Use a good quality, conventional oil, follow the oil life monitor change recommendations and stop obcessing about engine oil and it's ability to wring miraculous mileage out of an engine. If you believe all the claims of the synthetic fanatics and all the bad things that they say about conventional oil it is hard to explain how I managed to run my XS1100 to 108,000 in perfect health with SF rated conventional motor oil...Heavens!! Sacrilege. No way. That Ecotec is very robust and does not need synthetic oil nor will it benefit from it. I have seen Ecotecs run for hundreds and hundreds of hours on the dyno at full throttle, max RPM, flat out and they look perfectly fine at teardown analysis....and they all run on conventional oil. The new supercharge Ecotec for the Redline and Cobalt SS is spec'd for synthetic due to the extra temperature capability as that car is "rated" for track work but that is the main reason. The Ecotec has roller cam followers, a Gerotor style, high flow oil pump, roller timing chains, etc....so it is highly tolerant of low anti-wear ad rates and/or depleted oil so there is plenty of cushion in the oil life monitor to allow you to follow it without any reservation.

Todays oils are so good that using any off the shelf, SL/SM performance rated GF3/GF4 motor oil for gasoline engines is fine for that engine and they will easily work with the oil life monitor with plenty of cushion AND give you the fuel economy advantage. That is what I would recommend and do myself if I were you. The single biggest thing you can do to oil, for engine longevity, is to always run the engine until it is warm. Short trips are much more taxing then long commutes. If you do have to drive short trips, get the car on the highway once a week and air it out to get it good and warm and get the crankcase cleaned out...hot oil and PCV work wonders.

[Anthony]

D. Comments about Synthetics

The single advantage of synthetic is it's ability to operate at temps above 305 F without oxidizing rapidly. Since there are few applications where the oil gets that hot the advantage is moot and contributes zero to extended drain capability. Even my CBX with a partial fairing blocking part of the engine never gets the oil to 300 even running on the freeway at 80 in summer weather...I've checked. People tend to think that I hate synthetics since I usually try to point out that they to not necessarily allow longer change intervals (which is the most often quoted reason for using them seems like to justify the price). They are actually excellent products and do offer some other slight advantages in some situations. It is argued that the film strength is better with a synthetic and that the dynamic viscosity characteristics are better....along with the previously mentioned reduced oxidation rate above 305 F oil temp.

The question is, will the engine actually take advantage of those characteristics or ever be operated in a regime that requires synthetic or that would make synthetic advantageous??

Yea, I agree, oil in turbocharged applications is a good candidate for synthetic.

A synthetic will typically be a slightly lighter weight base oil due to the flatter viscosity curve as the temperature of the oil changes. Thinner oil will always be better for fuel economy (within reason....as long as it is not so thin that metal to metal contact occurs due to lower film thickness) which is why manufacturer's specs went from 10W30 to 5W30 and to 0W30 in some applications.

Synthetic products are excellent products for the most part but you just have to understand where they excell (very high and very low temperatures) so as to judge if they are justifiable in your case. You aren't every going to HURT anything with synthetic....you just might be paying a lot and expecting a lot more than you are actually getting, that is all.

First, though, let me be clear. Synthetics, such as Mobil 1, are excellent products. They can survive at temperatures well above the oxidation limits of conventional oil of 305 F. If an engine operates at those oil temperatures then synthetic is applicable. Synthetic offers good low temperature viscosity and pour points...low meaning below -40. Down to the -30/-40 range conventional oils are fine. If you are searching for oil on the northslope and cold start regularly at -40 then consider synthetic. Other than that, synthetic oil's usefulness is questionable in passenger cars.

Racing teams use synthetic oil for several reasons. First and foremost is marketing. If it is "good for racing" then it must be great stuff, right??? Fooled you , didn't it..!!! LOL LOL The racing teams get paid lots of sponsorship $$$$ to run the oils and put the stickers on the cars. That is why they use it. If someone paid them enough money to run lard in the motors they probably would. The engines will run fine with conventional oils as evidenced by teams sponsored by conventional oil companies that do not run synthetic.

In racing things happen to often drive the oil temps above 305 F. If this happens....the synthetic can take it and conventional oil would have a limited life. It lets the NASCAR boys tape over the oil cooler for better aero during qualifying and if the oil creeps to 350 in the process there is no harm done. So it has a marginal use and is a good insurance policy for when the going gets rough and that fender gets pushed in an blocks off the oil cooler.

If you are using synthetic oil, what gain or advantage do you expect...??? I understand the idea of putting the "best" into something and if you want to use synthetic I have absolutely no problem with it....just don't expect miracles and realize that the likely hood of really exploiting the advantages of the synthetic product in a street engine is pretty slim.

The proper application of synthetic lube products (in things like the VI package in conventional oil) is already being used and in the bottle of every oil you buy so the chemists that really understand the advantage of synthetic products are putting it in the correct applications for you.

I have an air cooled backup generator for our house that we need occasionally....it gets 20W50 Mobil 1 because it will run so hot on summer days when needed. Good place for synthetic and utilizes the advantages of it.

In very cold weather, there is less viscosity increase with synthetic. It will improve cranking speeds. Is it needed to help the engine down to -40....no....but it will make them easier to crank over.

Like I said, I am not in any way running down synthetics...just want to make sure no one thinks that there are huge advantages to them unless they are operating the engine in a regime that forces the oil to very high or very low temperatures. The main thing that I always hate is the belief that synthetics allow much longer change intervals....a belief kept alive by Amsoil and their BS.

BTW...you allude to synthetics and better oil consumption and better adherence to parts...??? My observations and experience are just the opposite. Synthetics seem worse for these features. Primarily due to the lower viscosity of the base stock, I suspect.

If you doubt this, pour synthetic in a drain pan, let it set and then tip it up on edge to drain. Do the same with an equal weight conventional oil. After several days the pan is going to be drier with synthetic..... Most of the people that I talk to with Northstar engines, which have a tendency to use a little more oil than some other engines, find that the engine uses even more with synthetic. I find that if I can convince them to use conventional oil and run the snot out of the engine occasionally the oil economy improves considerably. Try comparisons with the different oils and see if it affects the economy.

E. Some New Vehicles Specify Synthetic Oil

There are a number of new cars that specify Mobil 1. I work specifically on several of them. The Corvette LS1 is specified a synthetic oil engine and the RWD Northstar engines in the SRX/STS/XLR are also factory filled with Mobil 1. So will be the supercharged Northstar in the STS-V/XLR-V. Why you ask?? One simple reason. There is no need to put an oil cooler on the car if it has synthetic oil in it. If the owner takes it to a track day and runs the car on the track hard the oil will get over 305 without an oil cooler. Synthetic oil will take it and conventional oil would be questionable. Otherwise, the performance cars like this would all need large oil coolers and all the associated plumbing. Putting all that extra equipment on all cars so that the 2% that actually see the track will keep the oil cool is not a good idea. Better to leave off the cooler (less expense, less chance of oil leaks, less complexity, less to maintain with age) and protect the small percentage of engines that might get the oil above 305 with the synthetic. Regardless of what you have read, were told or believe this is the main reason that factory cars are spec'd for synthetic. Period. I know because I work with them everyday and can assure you that that is the truth.

Interestingly, the real hotrods, like the STS-V run oil coolers AND synthetics because the engine will push the oil temp over 305 even with a large cooler if used for continuous track work. So, even though the car has an oil cooler, the same logic and reasoning applies...use the synthetic to keep from having to put a HUGE oil cooler on it.

The engine oil temp does not run any cooler with the synthetic, by the way. I have run lots of engine cooling tests with conventional and synthetic oils and the oil temp is the same regardless...just that the synthetic has higher oxidation temps.

If an engine is designated for factory fill with synthetic it has other uses as well. In the case of the Northstar engines in the STS/SRX/XLR the engine has variable valve/cam timing (VVT) on all four cams. The VVT system uses engine oil pressure as a hydraulic system to move the cam phasers using control signals from the PCM. The VVT system is a hydraulic circuit that is separate from the normal engine lube circuits. In cold start situations the viscosity of the "hydraulic oil" must reach a certain level before the VVT system will respond quickly enough to allow it to be used. The more linear cold viscosity of the synthetic products allow earlier application of the VVT on cold starts. Without the synthetic the system would still work fine...just the cam phasers would "park" until the engine oil reache a certain temperature. Since the synthetic was spec'd anyway, it is exploited in the engine design to be able to better utilize the VVT system.

So.....that is why factory cars have synthetic. Not because it is magic or has better "wear" properties...just because it can live above 305 for extended periods of time. Interestingly, the synthetic only adds about 25 degrees of increased oil temp range above 305. The metal parts in the engine, that are much hotter than the oil and that are cooled by the oil, cannot take much higher temperatures. Aluminum starts to loose strength and gets "soft" enough that it will start to collapse in structural areas. Even hardened steel , like tappet faces, start to temper and soften at temps approaching 375/400F so if the oil is starting to approach 330 or so the tappet faces are getting close to the range that they will be starting to temper and anneal. Not desirable. In a race engine that will be torn down after the race and wear parts replaced this is not such a stringent condition but in a passenger car or street bike engine those temps cannot be seen without damage.....so.....the high temp capability of the synthetic oil cannot really be exploited by much.

[Anthony]

G. Comments about Mobil 1, and extended life Mobil 1

It is interesting that the new Mobil 1 "extended service" oils added more ZDP to the oil to prevent depletion of the anti-wear additive to market the extended drain intervals to 15,000. BUT....read the bottle. It specifically states that if your engine is under warranty, change the oil at the specified intervals...hmmm....so much for their "guaranteed 15,000 mile interval. Another gem on the bottle is the statement that "if your engine has an oil life monitor follow the oil life monitor and do not use the extended drain interval." The bottle also says that the extended service is void if the engine operates in heavy duty/commercial/livery service, is idled a lot or is operated in a dusty environment. That pretty much eliminates a LOT of other applications and matches the manufacturer's recommendations for sooner oil changes under those conditions. So..after reading the can, exactly what good is the "extended service" Mobil 1. In addition, if you look carefully, the extended service Mobil 1 does not have the API SG3/SG4 rating as it exceeds the anti-wear (zinc) concentration for the API SG3/SG4 ratings. This is not necessarily bad for motorcycles but makes the oil a NON-recommended oil for most modern passenger car applications. I am not making this up....read the fine print on the bottle yourself. I would change the oil at the normal intervals even if you do use a synthetic oil.

It isn't MY conclusion...it is a fact. Mobil even says the same thing. They have not stated anything about extended drain intervals with their products until the recent addition of the "extended service -15000" synthetic oil. And they had to modify their existing Mobil 1 product to make that claim (modified to the extent that it doesn't conform to the SG3/SG4 specs anymore) and they STILL put tons of qualifiers on the 15000 claim with the disclaimer about changing it according to the manufacturer's oil life monitor, and changing it sooner if under warranty or operating in towing/commercial service or dusty environments. I am not making that up....read the bottle for yourself. With all the other reasons for changing the oil there is no way that synthetic can claim a longer drain interval.

The fact is that the "extended service" claim for the Mobil 1 15000 oil is a bit hollow...especially when they add several $$$ per quart for the 15000 oil. A modern Cadillac Northstar or LS1 engine will go 12500 miles on the oil life monitor if used in highway driving, best case conditions...and that is validated with conventional, non-synthetic oil !!! So for the extra $$$ for synthetic and extra $$$ for 15000 you only get 2500 extra miles...and Mobil tells you on the bottle NOT to go 15000 if your car has an oil life monitor. If you saw data showing the oil was fine with extended drain intervals then conventional oil would have done the same thing on that particular test.

H. Comments about Amsoil
Forget the idea that synthetic allows longer drain intervals. It is hype by some of the synthetic marketers (primarily Amsoil) to sell/justify their expensive (highly profitable) product. They test under one set of best case conditions and then imply that that is the case for all conditions. Any oil claims of extended drain intervals that do not make the distinction of what type of service or what type of engine should be highly suspect and considered primarily a marketing ploy. Period.

Amsoil.....????.....That is an oil marketing company that utilizes a pyramid scheme to sell their product thru a system of distributors and dealers and such. They know absolutely nothing more about oil than Mobil or Texaco or the other major oil manufacturers. Their bogus claims are meant to sell their products at high prices to benefit their pyramid marketing scheme. How could they justify the high price they charge for their product otherwise. Their products probably perform well to some extent but they have no outstanding attributes that others do not have for half the cost. Their claims of long change intervals are completely nonsense. They base them on the lower oxidation rates of their synthetic products at high operating temps. As mentioned, that is rarely, if ever, the defining factor in oil changes and the testing that determines the oxidation rates is run at temps above what most engines will ever operate at. They take something completely out of context and pretend that it is a big advantage. It isn't.

If you look at all the tests that oils must pass to meet the API standards for performance, Amsoil only quotes selected results in areas of testing that do not replicate normal engine operation. If you really understand ALL the things that govern oil life Amsoil's claims evaporate. They make themselves sound very technical and quote lots of "data" but it is a smokescreen to cover their marketing scheme that benefits their distributors and dealers.....

donaldd34 mentioned:jestal - I read your prior replies basically stating not to extend oil changes past 12K miles or so and also the hype you said put out by Amsoil. But what about people who have run 25K miles on synthetic oil, have it tested and its still good for continued use. The TBN is still OK (like 4 or 5), the wear metals are not high and the antiwear additives are OK. I assume you can tell from the oil analysis whether the ZDP is depleted? If Amsoil products were pure hype, then why do their SDF filters score tops in the SAE H806 tests? Not trying to defend Amsoil, just trying to pry out a little more info.

I guess I would have to ask what is "OK" for anti-wear additives??? The anti-wear additives are positively going to deplete with engine revolutions whether you track this with revs, miles, hours, etc......they are going to deplete steadily. If an engine is not taking much anti-wear additives out of the oil (such as modern car engines with roller followers, no gears, etc...) then obviously the anti-wear additives will last longer....documented by the current allowance of 12,500 mile oil changes per the GM oil life monitor on many engines. So....how low do you want to go. Frankly, I tend to be relatively conservative and so does the GM oil life monitor. I consider the anti-wear additives to be below "safe" levels when it drops below 50% of concentration. So, theoretically the oil could go twice as far if ZDP depletion was the governing factor.....IF you were willing to run the oil down to very very low concentrations of ZDP.

[Anthony]

I. Oil Additives

What STP oil treatment did you add..??? Is it the red bottle that has the gooey stuff that I used to identify as regular old STP...???

The reason I ask is that the last time I looked that stuff did not have any ZDP in it at all.... If you read the bottle it claims to "improve wear resistance" by "increasing the oil film thickness thus keeping the parts farther apart". That stuff is simply an oil thickener or "viscosity improver" and is the LAST thing that I would put in a bike engine, a system with a wet clutch....or ANYTHING for that matter. Unless there is an STP oil product that I don't know about I have never seen any of their stuff that had ZDP in it. ZDP is just too expensive for much, if any, of it to be in that stuff for what it costs.

If you want additional ZDP then use the GM EOS. Forget STP. I would put half a pint in the oil change and add the other half pint halfway thru the oil change interval to spike the ZDP... Personally, I don't think the Rotella needs more ZDP if you are sticking to recommended oil change intervals. Just my opinion. I don't add any EOS to the oil in my bike. I just mentioned the EOS in case someone does want to add extra ZDP for some reason. It is a far better source of ZDP than STP...LOL...I just don't think a healthy FJR engine needs that much ZDP if you are using a quality oil like Rotella or Delvac.

The EOS is helpful as an assembly lube and/or a breakin additive for a new engine assembly. It is also recommended any time a degraded lubrication situation occurs to help protect the engine from any additional wear and/or the wear or scuffing that has occurred from snowballing into a catostrophic failure. Most scuffs or scores due to degraded lubrication will "heal" as the wear spot burnishes from continual contact if the scuffing or scoring can be halted. ZDP does that. In the case of an engine that blows a head gasket or intake gasket and injests a lot of coolant into the crankcase the lubrication is degraded. When the repair is made there is a good chance the engine can be saved by putting fresh oil and a can of EOS into the crankcase to prevent further scuffing or scoring and hoping that any damage will burnish and recover with continued operation. I have seen this demonstrated many times so I know it works and works well. A healthy motorcycle engine really doesn't need this unless you wanted to do it for breakin or something.... New engines at the factory are assembled with a ZDP rich assembly lube on critical parts and surfaces so as to protect those areas at startup and then the assembly lube washes into the oil and spikes the oil with ZDP for additional protection during breakin. So...new factory engines (GM engines, anyway) have conventional oil in them as factory fill but the oil is spiked by the assembly lube. So..it is true that the factory fill oil is both "regular" oil and "special" breakin oil....LOL

Let me know if I am in error but I specifically looked at a can of STP after I saw your similar comments in another post and confirmed that they make no mention of any additional anti-wear protection other than the "thicker oil film" due to the added viscosity of the "Scientifically Treated Petroleum"....i.e...snakeoil.

“ Would it benefit me to add ZDP, to try to prolong oil life between changing, as I don’t care about possibly damaging the catalytic converter? “

You are correct in your assumptions regarding the ZDP...if you were to ad more ZDP and even if it did poison the cat to some extent it really wouldn't matter....but....there is just really no need for it. It would be a waste of time and money to add more ZDP or spike the oil with EOS to accomplish this. If you are really paranoid, use one of the heavy duty diesel oils such as the Delvac or Delo or Rotella. Those are not energy conserving oils with the friction modifiers so there is a slight penalty in fuel economy if you use them...but the engine really doesn't need them at all.

AutoRx....LOL LOL LOL More snake oil to spend your money on. If you had a 1962 chevy that you though was sludged up form never having an oil change you might make a case for AutoRx....maybe. In a recent model car run on current oil technology....???.....LOL LOL The best cleaner, if you want to clean the engine inside, is fresh GF4 oil....forget any thought of putting AutoRx in your Ecotec. Harmful "Carbon" and "varnish" just don't happen with modern oils. If you take a 150,000 mile engine that lived in Phoenix, Arizona all it's life apart there is going to be a golden "coating" or hue to all the internal parts due to the long term operating temperatures of that environment. Not that anything is overheating but it is hot all the time. That is normal, expected and is what I call "varnish" to some extent. It is NOT on any moving/mating surfaces nor will it cause any problems. It is not something to consider AutoRx or ANY solvent to remove.

J. Breaking In Engines

I have read some of the recommended break in procedures and such and tend to agree with the "hard and fast" approach as being OK....but.....there are some caveats as usual.

Current engine technology leaves precious little in the engine to "break in" per se. Finishes on materials and metalurgy have improved dramatically over the years as well as the precision and fit of components. All this leads up to little to no required "break in" per se.

I have also torn down a lot of car engines that were broken in in different fashions and , to be honest, there is little or no difference in them. The engines all live fine and look great whether they were run hard initially or run easy.

I think the thing that has changed mostly is that the engines will live thru a harsh, WOT break-in with no problem these days so the idea of having to "break them in" a certain way is pretty much moot. You are probably not gaining much with the harsher break-in and it isn't hurting anything either.

The reason I bring this up is to make sure everyone is aware of one specific issue during break-in. Most all engines will bypass the oil filter to some extent at high RPM when the oil pump is pumping the greatest amount. This depends on the engine and the situation but, it is almost impossible to make an oil filter large enough to flow enough oil to provide 100% filtration at max RPM and max oil flow. Take this fact with the fact that what debris is going to be generated by the engine internally is going to be generated during break-in....primarily material scraped off the cylinder walls by the rings. Cast iron bores, particularly, will leave lots of ferrous material in the oil from the cylinder walls for the first few minutes of operation to be filtered out by the filter. Point being, if you run the engine to redline during this period of time and cause the oil filter to bypass the ferrous material will be dumped into the bearings which is not a good thing.

So....the only reservation I have about flogging the motor hard during break-in is to make sure the oil is hot to minimize filter pressure drop and bypassing and to limit RPM to some extent to limit possible bypassing. If the motor gets some miles on it (even 10 or 20) at low RPM then most all of the material is filtered out by then so it is not a big deal. Just an awareness issue as most people think that the filter is a 100% filtration deal all the time...which it isn't. Many automotive engines will bypass 40 or 50 % of the oil at max RPM.... Since this is a rare event and not something that can be done for extended periods of time it is not a big deal, except if you press the situation by trying to run a heavy duty breakin schedule when totally green. Most cars have enough break-in just on the assembly line and on and off the haul-a-way trucks to get past this but a green bike engine out of the crate it traveled in might be different.

[mr0077]

Anthony, you're gonna get the record for Loooooonnnnggggg posts :-)...
Seriously, good posts...but what this guy says come real close to contradicting (or at least nullifying) a lot of what Dr. Haas said in this link... http://snipurl.com/syntheticoils
particularly relating to value of synthetics. I tend to believe this guy knows what he is talking about, kinda makes the use of synthetics a "feel good" idea, as long as you use the right viscosity and change it regularly anyway, it seems...
Good post, interesting info.

[Bob In Ct]

Anthony:
Are you sure you're using Mobil1 20W-50?

Bob