Comp Cams Bad Tech Support Blew my Engine

[WildThing]

bump!!!!!!!

[PJS50]

Oh Mike... I feel for you buddy...
Comp's "great advice" also cost me a couple grand when their suggested hardened steel dizzy gear chewed up and spit out my camshaft gear... At least they replaced my camshaft free of charge up front though....
For my 385 series motor, I had them wittle me a custom grind on one of their "billet" hydraulic roller camshaft blanks, for which they suggested a hardened steel dizzy gear for my MSD too (bought the gear from Ford Motorsport). Well 2 issues with this setup in my case.
1). It comes to fruition after my first camshaft goes bye-bye that Comp's "billet" steel camshafts are not entirely "billet steel" afterall. So, this dizzy gear selection was incorrect from that standpoint...
2). My first camshaft had ZERO final machining done to the cam gear... I made a mental note to myself about the first camshaft and just how sharp the edges of the gear/gear teeth were when I did the install. But, since I had never installed a custom/billet/roller camshaft before, I just assumed that everything on this "custom" camshaft would be fine.... NOT!!!
Unlike you Mike, I made it about 750 miles before this combo went bad... But, when I brought all of the bad tech advice to Comp's attention, they ponied up with a replacement camshaft for me, but that's all...
The second camshaft I got from them had MUCH better final machining done to the cam gear (nice bevels in the gear teeth/gear edges), but I still burnished the gear with a power wire wheel before installing it (something that Comp didn't tell me to do on the first camshaft either)... On the 2nd one, I also opted for a bronze dizzy gear... If they had any of the newer polymer type gears for the 385 series motors at that time, I probably would have gone with one of those....
One other thing that I would suggest of EVERYONE installing a camshaft in a performance engine, is to do a cam/dizzy gear oiling modification..
In the block, there are oil gallery plugs that are situated directly behind where the installed dizzy gear rotates. In mine, I drilled a .0032" hole in that plug and I also indexed/angled the hole I drilled so that when that gallery plug was fully seated, there is a nice stream of oil squirting directly onto the dizzy/cam gear, ensuring good lubrication of this traditionally "poorly lubricated" area of the engine...
I have a few thousand miles behind the new camshaft now and all is well with respect to dizzy/cam gear wear (I pull the dizzy out periodically to check it...).
I'll tell you one thing, I have been wrenching on motors for most of my life and I have previously had zero problems with any Comp Cams products. But, after my latest dealings with them and their supposed "tech" guys, I will never install another one of their camshafts ever again....
Good luck in court Mike if you try it... Let me know how it comes out if you do (so I can sue them too)...
I thought of doing the same thing but if you take a look at Comp's camshaft "warranty" paperwork that you got with your camshaft, I am not sure that you can get anything out of them in court besides a new camshaft..... I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but it seems that Comp has ALL of the "C.Y.A." clauses in that warranty card so that the ONLY thing they are responsible for is the camshaft replacement alone (no labor, no other consequences of their bad advice)....

Good luck,
Pat

[eschaider]

Moderator,

It looks like FFRCobraMike was unfamiliar with how Club Cobra board posting works. Can his many threads on the same topic be combined into one thread for his benefit and everyone else?

Thx,

Ed

[FFRCobraMike]

Pat
Since I started posting on this topic, it seems there are a whole bunch of people that have lost engines because of this bad advice. I don't know if I can win in court, but until Comp is stopped from giving out this bad advice, more and more people will be loosing engines and having costly repairs. I have been thinking of having some independent observer take my damaged cam to a metalurgy lab for testing of the hardness on the gear. If it comes out testing too soft to mate with a steel dizzy gear, then I think all of us might have a fairly good case. I asked Comp to have it tested and they refused. Probably because they don't want the liability if it proves they are wrong. A guy on the SAAC forum said he knows that some of their roller cams that are for street applications are definately made from cast iron. Yet Comp is not admitting that. If anyone wants to have my cam tested so the results can't be questioned as they would be if I had it done, let me know. I think someone who has not lost an engine and is unbiased should have it tested.

[PJS50]

Well,
As far as the hardness testing, I don't know what that will prove...
What I mean is this... yes, I thought that the hardened steel dist. gear would be correct with an equally "hard" billet steel camshaft, and this is initially what they told me I was getting (billet steel), but later on I found out that the only "true" billet camshaft that Comp offers costs WAY more than the one that I ordered...
The ones they list as "billet" are not truly billet, but rather a cast blank that has been partially machined and then sent out for re-hardening. So, when these blank types receive their final lobe machining, there is still a bit of hardened steel left thus making it "harder" than an all-out "cast steel" camshaft. Yet, without knowing this fact up front, I had no way of telling if the tech guy knew what he was talking about or not...
After the fact, I NEVER would have used a machined steel dizzy gear on the camshaft that I ordered as the dizzy gear should NEVER be made of a harder material than the camshaft itself is made of... The dizzy gear "can" be equally hard (like cast dizzy gear on a cast camshaft) and be fine... The dizzy gear "can" be of a softer material than the camshaft (like a bronze/polymer dizzy gear on a cast/or even true billet steel camshaft) and be fine. But, the reverse should never be attempted, or you'll get what happened to you and me...
I seem to have been fortunate enough that the steel shavings that I had running through my motor never got far enough to do any bearing toasting (I checked all the con-rod and main bearings when I had it all apart). This I attribute to using a Canton no-bypass oil filter... After this experience, I'll NEVER use anything but a no-bypass type of oil filter in my Cobra...
Go ahead and get your camshaft material hardness tested by an independent/professional testing lab... Even though you hire them to do this testing doesn't mean that what they do for you will be "uncertified" in a court of law...
It might cost you though, and you might not get it back afterall...
Those darn "C.Y.A." clauses that Comp uses are fairly thorough....

Pat

[Veloce]

We put an Engle Hydraulic Roller Cam in my 418 stroker and ordered the hardened steel gear with the MSD Distributor.
Summit sent one with the cast iron gear and unfortunately, we assumed that Summit had sent the correct unit.

The Dist. gear lasted about 125 miles and just disintegrated.

Luckily, the engine stopped immediately and after a short tow, I was able to drain the oil (lots of chunks present), pull the oil pan, clean it thoroughly and check the oil pickup to see if anything had passed.

After an all clear for the oil pump pickup, and a new hardened steel gear installation, it has been fine for the last 2600 miles.

No issues with the cam.

Jim

[iwantacobra427]

Cams. The engine has a Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam: Ford 5.0 Magnum 280HR Cam (PART #35-430-8) purchased in 2006. I think this is the right setup. What do you guys think? Thanks.

[FFRCobraMike]

yes the 5.0 motors do use a steel gear. It is only the older 289 and 351 blocks that us a "Retro Fit" cam that do not.

Mike

[Excaliber]

This 'new' plastic gear hasn't been out long enough for us to get any solid field reports on it use. Or at least I haven't seen any, and I've been looking for them! The dist gear issue has been around a LONG time and has MANY threads associated with failures. I absolutly believe the BEST information you can get on this subject comes from the engine builders themselves. Kieth Craft, Gessford, etc. THEY are the ones who deal with this in the 'real world'.

So how about it Kieth or George or other builders, you guys got any updates on the plastic gears yet? I was running a bronze gear, my new cam ate that one up pretty quick! Bought a new dist from Gessford who supplied it with the proper gear and it works great. Jamo used to carry a 'spare' bronze gear in his Cobra, rumor has it he could change it right on the side of the road and keep on truckin'.

That $hit got old, threw that solid roller away and went with a flat tappet from what I understand. Same for me, threw that stinkin' solid roller away and went flat tappet!

[Jac Mac]

'Plastic' or 'Carbon Ultra-Poly Composite pn#35100' has been out since 2003, surely there must be some feedback even on other forums, or is this a 'Bad News' only forum, sad fact in todays world.
Chev equivalent pn's#12200-#12140, check with some of your GM friends & see if they have any feedback, I would if I had any friends in 'that' camp, but as they dont like domination I dont !!

Jac Mac

[badrich]

I lifted his article from Car Craft's web site:

Distributor Gears: What’s The Deal?
Gears Won’t Live A Long, Healthy Life Unless They’re Properly Matched And Set Up.
By Tony Nausieda
photographer: Courtesy of MSD

Look at the effort that goes into a ring-and-pinion installation, yet no one thinks twice about the distributor gear/cam gear relationship unless performance starts to suffer.

Distributor gears are designed to be sacrificial. They’re easier to replace than cam gears, so they’re engineered to go first in the event of failure. Properly chosen, your distributor gear and cam gear will differ in hardness. But since a flat-tappet cam is made to a different hardness than a roller cam, you have to do your homework and pick a compatible distributor gear. We spoke with MSD engineer John Clark to get the lowdown on distributor gear science. Properly set up, these gears will give you one less thing to worry about.

Gear Science

Stock flat-tappet cammed engines usually use a ductile iron distributor gear. A standard iron gear usually works well with a flat-tappet cam grind, but remember that stock gears were designed around a stock cam. Because most modern performance flat-tappet cams are ground on better quality (harder) cores, MSD’s iron distributor gears are surface-hardened a few points higher than stock.

Softer bronze gears are typically used when running a billet steel roller cam, because the roller cam cores aren’t as hard as those on flat tappet cams. Bronze gears have a bad rap for wearing very quickly, but that’s in part due to inferior yellow-brass gears sold by some companies. Quality nickel/bronze alloy gears like MSD’s are made from a tough alloy, so they should live for years provided you don’t beat on the motor before the oil’s hot. Sometimes your first bronze gear may wear out quickly as it massages the cam gear. John mentioned that if the cam gear is poorly made, the first bronze gear may destroy itself deburring and reshaping the cam gear, but the second bronze gear should wear in faster, work more smoothly, and live longer. Bronze gears wear more predictably since they’re the same hardness all the way through, whereas iron gears are only hardened on their outer layer (0.0005- to 0.0015-inch deep). Remember to check ignition timing; as the distributor gear wears, the timing will retard.

Ford developed mild steel distributor gears for use with factory hydraulic-roller-cammed engines. This steel is softer than the ductile iron gears, but harder than bronze, designed for longer life necessary on a factory engine. Relatively harder Chevy hydraulic rollers use a standard iron distributor gear, but at the expense of shortened gear life. The Ford gears, though, are pretty tricky to install since they’re both press-fit and pinned to the shaft.

The metal’s only part of the story, though. How the distributor and cam gears mesh is just as important. The pitch diameter is a measurement of how closely the cam gear and distributor gear mesh. Excessive clearance between the gear teeth shouldn’t be fixed by shoving the distributor farther into the hole; this screws up the proper wear pattern. The right way to take care of excessive backlash is with an oversized distributor gear. Currently, there’s no practical tool for measuring pitch diameter, but John told us a 0.006-inch oversize works great in 99 percent of small-block and big-block Chevys. For the “other guys,” MSD is working on a tool to correctly measure pitch diameter so a proper oversize gear can be chosen.

Crane Cams recommends using moly disulfide assembly lubricant and zinc dithiophosphate anti-wear additive before firing up your engine with your new, expensive camshaft installed. I hope this helps a little. Rich