TKO Upgrade

[MaSnaka]

Thinking of upgrading my Toploader to the TKO600 mainly to add a 5th speed. I will need a new bell housing and I want to ditch the internal hyd throw out bearing and use an external slave and fork actuated throw out. I have hydraulic linkage which I would like to keep. Any thoughts or ideas as to which slave unit will work? I know space may be limited. I have a big block 390FE.

Thanks,
John

[Double Venom]

John,
Talk to MIKE FORTE, when it comes to TKO's and hydraulic set up Mikes the guy. He's also a Motorsport/Ford Racing distributor.

[RICK LAKE]

MaSnaka John, Overdrive trannies are nice IF you have the right motor and setup. Need a motor with alot of lowend torque at 1,500 rpms to 1,800 rpms. What endratio do you have? Is your current trans a wide ratio or narrow ration trans?
Most FE motors make great torque down low. It depends on the camshaft. It may be simpler to change the rearend ratio that swap the trans.
If you lug the motor at low rpms, over time you will damage the drivetrain. The clutch will only absorb so much vibration of the motor lugging.
Another main thing and this to me is the biggest, OIL PRESSURE. What is the pressure running at theses low rpms. FE motors have poor oiling systems. If you are running 50-60 psi at 1,200 rpms, this is fine. If you are only running around 30 psi, IMPO, you are starving the back of the motor of lube. Yes I know that the motor only needs 10 psi to float the crank shaft and in some motors like an LS1-LS( that's fine ). This is not a gm motor.
If you get a trans with the right ratios that's great. getting a final 5th gear of .65 and a low rearend ratio in the low 3.00's you are not going to be happy.If you do go though with this get a final ratio of . 87 for 5th gear.
You you going to be cruising all the time?
Last note, TKO have come along way to making a better trans. Need a fair amount of parts to swap into your car. May even need to replace the drive shaft.
If you have time, look into a Richmond super street 5 spd with OD. This trans will also hold 600/600 of HP and torque. Direct swap. May need to change just the clutch disc and pilot bushing in the back of the crankshaft. Top loader and Richmond are the same length. Shifter location same hole. TKO you may have too change holes to get it to fit. Different shifter between old and new trans. Some thing to check out the think about. Good luck Rick L.

[Double Venom]

Hey Rick,
Thank you for filling in the blanks. I assumed Forte would do that for John, but you have hit all the bases!

[MaSnaka]

Thanks Rick and DV,
I will give Mike Forte a call. Also Bret Lykins had some good info for me at another site. My main question is about the external slave set up and was hoping you guys or someone familiar with CR's might have already invented something to work already.

About my car though, 390fe, I currently have a close ratio 4 speed toploader (works fantastic), rear end ratio is a 3.70 9", w/ Tru Track, mild cam, hot oil pressure (10/30 VR1) is normally 55psi cruising and only drops slightly at lower RPM's but at idle will drop to 20psi. Not a race car (yet) but a little overkill for a street cruiser. What happens is at freeway speed I am taching 3800rpms and would really like to drop that into the low to mid 2's. I have checked the ratios from the TKO600 and the .64 od seems to be the best fit.

If anyone needs a well sorted that has been rebuilt toploader RUG-AJ from a 1969 428 Torino, let me know. Located in So Cal.
Thanks,
John

[olddog]

I have a TKO600 with the .64 OD in my car. I don't like the huge step between 4th and 5th. It is like having a 6 speed with 5th gear removed. I would much rather have the .82 ratio 5th gear. If that isn't tall enough then change the rear end ratio.

I think you should try to find someone with this transmission and drive or ride in it before you pull the trigger. Changing the 5th gear ratio is quite expensive, as the hole shaft has to be replaced, so once you buy it your stuck with it.

Hope that helps.

[patrickt]

Listen to olddog and run your exact speeds with the TKO600 gears, your rear, your tire sizes, and how those speeds correspond to the RPMs of your engine. For me, and my 15" wheels, 3.54 rear, and my .64 OD, it's absolutely perfect. My engine runs at its "quietest spot" at 2200 RPM, which corresponds to 75 MPH for me. One of my favorite things to do is head out on one of our lightly travelled interstates and just "quietly cruise" at 75MPH, which will not get you pulled over either. That is the only thing I ever use the OD for.

[eschaider]

One of the things you are going to miss with the TKO, John, is the smooth shifting the top loader had. The TKO is abysmal as shipped from Tremec. The problem is multifaceted.

Some of it is the synchros and there are replacement carbon fiber faced pieces that do a great deal to improve the gear synchronization. Sometimes these new synchros have worn out quickly because of a difference in the angle on the gear's synchro cone and the lining face on the synchro. For the most part this has been fixed but there might still be some old stock skulking around out there.

Some of it is shift fork friction face related and many transmission shops today have the bronze shift fork facings to help in this matter. Some of it is yet still related to the shift rails and Tremec's OEM shift rail timing problems. The stock rails can not be fixed, they have to be replaced.

The one stop shopping spot for all the fixes (and I have not talked about the front countershaft bearing yet) is Liberty's. They can do the whole shebang (including the front countershaft bearing) for you at one place and one stop.

When you are all done with the fixes the transmission will actually shift very nice — not like your old top loader but quite nice. The headaches however are not over, yet.

Hiding inside your new TKO 600 is a Tremec created fundamental design flaw that affects third gear. As luck (or rather lack of prior planning) would have it third gear on the main shaft is misaligned with third gear on the countershaft. If you want to believe the Tremec engineers the misalignment is only 0.140"!! Here is a picture of what it looks like;



The pic also shows the damage the incomplete tooth engagement causes when you hook up your power to the ground in third.

While the problem is fixable it involves machining off the third gear synchro, shortening that portion of the gear, then a respline of the gear for a replaceable synchro like used on the input shaft and finally making a spacer to move third gear forward on the main shaft to properly engage the countershaft gear.

This is a royal PITA when everything goes right. When things go bump in the dark it'll blow you mind and your patience. This is something Tremec has known about for a decade (maybe more) and chosen to do absolutely nothing about!

If you haven't purchased parts yet I would strongly encourage you to look at a T-56 Magnum. It'll fix you up with a land speed record sixth gear (0.63) but a fairly nice 0.80 fifth gear like the TKO RR option. Big differences are;

◉ The shift quality approaches that of your top loader,
◉ The trans is rated at 700 ft/lbs TQ capacity,
◉ The gear spreads/spacing make the car a dream to drive,
◉ You don't have to use the 0.63, 6th OD if you don't want to,
◉ The car drives beautifully on the highway in 5th @ 0.80 OD.

Real nice solution, essentially the same price, no reliability or U/G expense BS to get the trans to do what it should do right out of the box.

All things considered, not a bad alternative ...


Ed

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by MaSnaka

....currently have a close ratio 4 speed toploader (works fantastic), rear end ratio is a 3.70 9", w/ Tru Track, mild cam.....

John,
If you stay with the 3.7 rear and change from a CR Toploader to a TKO600, the first gear ratios for the two gearboxes are very different. You would probably notice a massive difference in first gear capabilities. That may not be what you want.
Cheers,
Glen

[1795]

Unfortunately there is give and take in everything. If you go with the TKO the overdrive should be in a range that you will use on a regular basis. The .82 will allow you to get into overdrive at a lower speed, with the .64 you will not be able to functionally use it until 65-70 and the lower gearing in 1st and second may not be what you want. If you change the rear end you would have to drop considerably, my top loader with a 3.54 rear end runs about 2800 rpm at 60 and 3200 rpm at 75. The trade off is that with a ratio in the 3.23 range you are going to have trouble getting into 4th gear until about 50.

What you have to decide is the typical driving that you do and what level of performance you are looking for. I have thought about getting a .82 overdrive for my car so that it would improve long range mpg and be a little quieter down the road. However, for the most part I am driving in the 60-65 mph ranger on country roads and that puts me at the beginning of the power range of my cam and the car loves it. Good luck with your decision and try to keep the cost within means.

[joyridin']

I have a T56 with 3.7 gears in the rear. Works great! My 6th ratio is .54. At 70 MPH it pulls about 1900 RPM. A little low, but on flat land or at 75 MPH, it cruises great.

It is a big transmission though physically. Make sure it will fit.

[JBCOBRA]

The .64 overdrive on the 600 trans just too tall. Been there. Get the .82!
It makes 5th gear a real gear that comes in handy for guys that really drive their cars

[RICK LAKE]

MaSnaka John your playing, I gone a secret. The easiest thing to do for your car is the change the rear end carrier. A 9" rear can have the center swapped in 35 minutes with basic tools. #.70 is great for racing 1/4 mile or auto cross of using 1or 2 gears only. We don't have the first gear ratio of the trans. Guessing in the 2.40-2.60's. Final is 1-1. If you have to cruise this car, you can find a rebuilt 9" for about $1,000.00 with gears. need a gasket or RTV and fluid. Basic work is you and free. If your motor is a torque monster and low end power, a 3.00 will give you the long legs to cruise. If you are looking for a happy middle, 3.25 would be ideal. Keep the trans you have, skip the modifications to the car. Enjoy. Cost saved about $2,000.00. Down the road if you want to get more power, then look at changing the trans.
Others here have the correct info on TKO. I beleive that their info said the trans is 600 pound torque rated. That's not 600 under full load or abuse. This is way I said to look at richmond. I have heard that these trannies are being built in China I still like the design and support of the shafts over a tko. I have an early version of the Richmond 6spd when they came out in 95. Great trans. It also has a couple of problems. gearing of a 3.25 first is a waste with 3.31 rearend. First shift within 30' Used 2nd gears to startup all the time. Overdrive is .87 used it and my motor would lug at 70 mph. This was 438 ft of torque at the wheels. Heat, when racing the shifting would get tight. My tunnel is fire proofed and air getting to the back of the car is none through the tunnel. Problem was fixed with adding a 4" bilge fan and pulling air from r/f foot duct. No shifting when hot. Know your limits, this trans has only a 450/450 torque and HP rating. It will bind if powershifted. This is why I went to a G-Force for racing. Only thing I didn't get was a 2.80 first gear and stayed with 3.05. With a 3.07 or 2.88 gearing, this trans will be perfect for all a round. I am still getting a super street for my 498 motor. This is all trial and failures over the last 15 years. Clutch, You might want to look at a Street twin from Mcleod. You will never need another one. Great holding, takes a ton of abuse, Soft pedal with just enough feel for engagment. Bylkins sold it to me. best money I spent. It's worth the up grade. This twim makes no noise when driving either. Some do. Good luck. Rick L. Ps the money you justsaved on not doing the trans will give you enough for this clutch setup and a cruise.

[MaSnaka]

Thanks for all the info guys. Eshader you are the only one I have heard with a complaint about the Tremec TKO600. Very discouraging to hear. Does any one else have trouble with shifting and worse 3rd gear getting chewed up? Not sure I'm interested in a 6th gear though.

Rick thanks for mentioning the Richmond super street 5, that sounds like a good alternative. I'm looking and listening.

Truth of the matter is I want the 5 speed to use 5th gear to settle in for freeway cruising. Drop the rpm's to a reasonable level and keep 1st-4th for performance driving.

My toploader is close ratio and just changing the rear end will drop rpm's some in 4th but 1st gear becomes very tall.

I have not heard any one with specifics regarding the external slave conversion. What units or part numbers do you have that will fit the CR with a big block?

I still have some homework to do and will get back with what I find.

Thanks,
John

[Double Venom]

John
Not to be redundant but the hydraulics are really simple. Again Forte makes all the parts for push or pull system, although he doesn't advocate the pull system often.

You know how much we used to drag race the "DV". Never a problem hitting third gear, but on a hard shift it always ground a little going in - always, not like a quality top loader at all, but the 5th rear was nice and sixth was really blah in my opinion. We used 3:08's. 3:55's, 3:73's, finally settling on 3:55's. 70 75 MPH we would run around 1,800 to 1950 RPM.

3:55's, depending on Tree traction some times I could just make the finish without hitting 4th. 3:73's I would have to go 4th and that cost to much time and torque.

Settled on 3:55's and a little learning curve..

DV

[blykins]

I've sold a lot of TKO's and I've never had one go back for 3rd gear issues. The shifting issue is there, but it appears that the TKO needs a break-in period before it smooths out. If you're needing to speed shift about 6000-6200, then I would suggest some blueprinting work to the shift finger, gear cones, and synchronizer hubs. An aftermarket shifter works wonders as well.

Not a fan at all of the Magnum T-56. In comparison to a TKO 600, you get a transmission that is much longer, heavier, much bigger around, and much more expensive. The 6th gear is not a perk in most cases. If you're trying to get one to bolt up to an engine (especially an FE) with a twin disc, then it requires more machine work to the midplate, along with some extra parts.

We offer the TKO 600 with some upgrades that will extend the capacity past the 700 lb-ft mark, and will still come out cheaper than a T-56.

[maurice19]

John,
I replaced my internal hydraulic tb with the Kirkham setup. A perfect, simple ( thank goodness) bolt on.

Maurice

[MFE III]

Hey John; I second the endorsement of Mike Forte's solution. I purchased his bell housing with external mounted slave and it was an easy setup. No problems in nearly 5 years of use, whereas a number of my/our friends with SPF and CSX cars have had problems in this area.
http://http://www.fortesparts.com/cl...el-bellhousing

[Double Venom]

John,
Just a comment on blykins post. Never blew third gear at all. Never heard of one blowing it, like I said (3-56's) and all three of them would do a little grinding (during speed shifting only) going into third. Almost like there wasn't enough clutch release???

Of course the T-56's and the tko's are different animals!

[Ram427]

as I understand it, you can keep the toploader bell housing if you use a different length (shorter?) input shaft.

I got this from Mike Forte when I was investigating the same swap.

the new input was a $100 ish option, but this was about 4 yrs ago

TCET4617 was my TKo600 of choice.

kept the toploader in the end as the mileage each year doesn't warrant the change.

good luck.

Roger