Front suspension (again)

Jack21 · #1 (**permalink**) 01-09-2002, 06:03 PM

Been complaining to Darryl at RCC, that this front suspension is still to stiff. Using Heidts tubular uppers, RCC tubular coil over lowers, 375#/in Carerra coil over springs, and Carerra shocks. Using stock MII strut rods and urethane strut rod bushings.

Darryl thinks the springs are about right, the shocks are about right, but if I took the springs & shocks completely out, the front end would still be too stiff because of the urethane strut rod bushings. Makes the strut rod act like an extra spring rather than a locating link.

Put the rubber ones back in? Use something else? What do you guys use?

Double Venom · #2 (**permalink**) 01-09-2002, 07:52 PM

Jack.
I use coil-overs w/375 lbs springs. Tubular control arms, and "used" to use urethane.

Case closed -- well almost. Went to custom lowers and got rid of the struts all together!

Have I told you we pulled a 1.3 G with my DV ????

DV

Jack21 · #3 (**permalink**) 01-09-2002, 08:56 PM

OK, what do you use now? Rubber? Adjustable strut rods?

Which shocks do you use with your coil overs? Carrera? ProShocks? Koni?

Looked at strut rod eliminator kits. CR suspension mounting points aren't very thick except where the strut rod mounts. My thoughts were to fabricate lower control arm mount (like most street rods use) and weld to frame. Decided not a priority right now, and used the strut rods. Heidts and others appear to do better job on MII front ends than CR. Starting with a bare frame, knowing what I know now, we'd talk re-doing IFS & IRS.

Don't get me started on CR bashing. Am cutting up spare set of sidepipes as we speak for rebop. Would never have believed what's inside 'em had you guys not said something. Once swapped, I'll continue with carb & ignition tuning. Going with PowerPack 2 1/2" glasspacks. I'll try 'em before I coat 'em. If too loud, will do 2 1/4".

1.3 G!!! Awsome! They are putting instant bonding Super Glue in tires these days. Sticks when tire is on pavement, releases when tire lifts off. Amazing stuff

Double Venom · #4 (**permalink**) 01-09-2002, 09:11 PM

Jack don't shoot CR's for the sidepipes..think ofor pick something else! These sidepipes are used by a lot of Cobra manufactures.

We use Carrera for street/home

style use, then jump right to Penske's. (We're very luck to have a Penske engineer helping us)

PRO also make a good combo.

Our lowers use a small triangle that we do weld in. Never, ever had a problem with CR 's frame, even with the Viper motors.

DV
P.s we did the 1.3 at Honda's test track with Yokohama full DOT street tires!

Mohuska · #5 (**permalink**) 01-09-2002, 09:33 PM

Venom...I purchased my cobra and the previous owner had lowered the car 3" all around. too LOW.....scrapes bottom....I am looking at Penskes...got their race group in Northern Cal....any advice on a workable suspension??

Double Venom · #6 (**permalink**) 01-10-2002, 06:15 AM

Mohuska,

I'm very unfamiliar with a West Coast set up / suspension.

My first thought is how it was lowered? Did they just cut the springs? If so...bad, very bad. Did they use Drop Spindles? It sounds reasonable that you may just have to start over and get the proper suspension. It all depends on what you expect to do with the car.

Does the WC Cobra use the MII suspension type set up? What's on the rear?

I'm sure with guys on here like Jack, Don, and many others, we can turn that baby into a real asphalt burnin', tire squealin' autocross butt kicker!

Give us some absolute full details. Engine, type suspension front and rear, Ind. or straight axle? Weight, and ratio's if you know them.

This is what this board is all about, I do love it so!

DV

Jack21 · #7 (**permalink**) 01-10-2002, 06:03 PM

OK, I'll put the rubber ones back in and see what happens next.

Who's lower arms (the ones with the little triangles to weld in) do you use to eliminate the strut rods?

The CR frame is anything but flimsy. It'll put a F350 frame to shame. If I try to suport the front on two jackstands, I have to shim one. The frame won't twist enough to settle on the low one. The suspension mounting points where the control arms bolt up are what I was referring to.

Didn't go with Enzio on the mufflers. He's semi retired. Didn't go with the JCWhitney mufflers either. Followed up on a small ad in Street Rodder. PowerPack mufflers (powerpackmufflers.com) makes an aluminized 30" case, 2 1/2" core glasspack. Cut the existing turn outs off at the case and sent them. They'll weld it on to the new case, put a 3"ID nipple on the front that I can clamp on the collecters when I get them back. Of course I have to send the retrofits off to Airborne for coating. Keep ya all posted on how it works, looks, sounds, costs.

Maybe I'll have the kinks worked out by DVII

Mohuska · #8 (**permalink**) 01-12-2002, 09:00 AM

Venom..Thanks for the reply. The WC Cobra uses a MII suspension. I don't know what was done to lower the suspension...I believe they used shorter springs. The car is heavy..weighing in at about 3600 lbs w/ engine. The ratio is claimed to be 50/50 weight distribution. The engine is a bored out 460..Cobra jet heads and Holley 950 DP...Claimed to develop 600 HP.....

Rear is a Ford 9" solid-28 spline. Front and rear systems have a heavy coil with shock mounted through the middle....not a true coilover though...I am trying to get this car up enough not to scrape all the time and keep CG low enough to improve lateral stability

I would appreciate any help from you or anyone else...Thanks

Jack21 · #9 (**permalink**) 01-12-2002, 10:41 AM

3600 pounds?? That's extremely heavy for a Cobra. These things usually tip in at around 2200 - 2500 pounds. That's mid size sedan weight.

Is WC still in business? Do they have a website? Tech support? Remnants of a dealership/builder network? I'd want to start with the manufacturer and see what was supposed to be used as a suspension, and go from there.

Don't have enough information to make any suggestions.

Dave Samson · #10 (**permalink**) 01-12-2002, 01:29 PM

I wonder what benmark is being used when describing the weight of our Cobras. Are we including ourselves and a full tank of gas ?

Double Venom · #11 (**permalink**) 01-12-2002, 03:46 PM

I'm not sure how everyone else does there's, but when I give weight and ratio's it is without driver, unless specified. Our weights are curb or wet rates.

AKA, full tank, oil, and water.

I have to agree, 3,600 lbs seems awfull heavy. The DV II comes in at 3143 and we intentionally made it that heavy to meet the minimum that SCCA gave us. (3,100)

Mohuska, WC is still in business no? I think right across the river in Canada from Detroit.

If I, or anyone else told you to go buy something at this point, chances are you would be throwing your money away.
If you can "scale" the car. Have it weighed and get each corner weight, then "maybe" we could give you some ideas.

It does sound like you would benefit greatly with coil-overs on all 4 corners, just depends on which shock and what weight springs.

Just our rule of thumb on big blocks - 375 lb front springs with 175 /225 rear springs. Carerra, PRO, Alden, or Penske have all been great to work with. (I know there are others so don't start yelling at me

these are the guys that we work with the most.

Keep us posted, I would really like to know!
DV

Jack21 · #12 (**permalink**) 01-12-2002, 05:11 PM

DV, if you use 375# springs with big blocks, what do you use with 351W? 302? Thought you used heavier spring with BB?

Also working with Koni tech support to see if we can come up with a Koni substitute for the Carrera. Then see how much $$$ they want for a pair.

Dave Samson · #13 (**permalink**) 01-12-2002, 05:31 PM

I've heard of guys running 600 lb. springs, others using 300 lbs.
It all seems to be guess work to me.
Surely not one of these components, springs,shocks, chassis attributes, tire type and air pressure,wheel alignment,etc can be taken in isolation.
A twitch on one of these components affects every other and must be considered together.

Double Venom · #14 (**permalink**) 01-13-2002, 08:10 AM

Jack,

We always start with 350 lb. springs up front. With a CR's Cobra with the set back of the motor and the longer wheel base, (for street use) gives a very good ride with exceptional street handeling. If we do the full "tweak" on the front suspension and use a non-SVO BB then we will mormally start in the 450 to 550 range, then adjust to fit the owner and his driving techniques and dislikes or likes.

The DV II is presently using 500 lb. front springs.

Dave is so right on his statement,

"Surely not one of these components, springs,shocks, chassis attributes, tire type and air pressure,wheel alignment,etc can be taken in isolation.
A twitch on one of these components affects every other and must be considered together."

It really isn't that hard to do fella's. If you get track time, it is easy to determine what works and what doesn't. If it's a 90% cruiser then simply adjust until you like the ride and feel.

It's only money!

DV

Jack21 · #15 (**permalink**) 01-13-2002, 10:25 AM

Who's 350# spring do you use? Is it a conical spring, coil over on bottom/Ford on top? Carrera only makes a 375#, that's how I wound up with it.

My 351W weighs about what a std 302 would weigh with aluminum heads, intake, water pump, radiator, and steering rack. (The late Mustang power rack, aluminum, weighs substantially less than the MII, cast iron.)