Heat related binding in steering problem

[TWOOD]

OK, I have had my CRII completed and on the road since '08 and I have experienced an intermittent binding in the steering while driving.
It comes and goes and I believe it occurs only when the engine is hot and the car is moving at slower speeds.
If everything cools, is disappears.
If I drive it at freeway speed for a period of time (lots of air moving through engine compartment), it disappears.
It can be felt in the steering wheel when making very slight adjustments while driving. Kind of a catch and then a release and a catch and then a release.
I am thinking that maybe the header is heating up the steering column rod and causing it to expand and lengthen. The clearance is only about ½ inch.
Could that cause this symptom?
Rack and Pinion is from Flaming River and column is from Ididit.
I believe my kit was one of the very last ones delivered from CII prior to Don Scott's misfortunes.
p.s. phasing of the universal joints does not seem to be a cause since no binding occurs when cold.
Opinions & Thought are appreciated!
Thanks to all for reading and or replying.

[vatdevil]

Header wrap?

[1795]

I was wondering if you could just wrap the steering column with a heat wrap near the header and see if that changes anything? While it may be heat related, it could be other things as well and that would be an inexpensive way to try to rule out heat from the header as a problem.

[TWOOD]

Thanks for your thoughts, guys.
I have ceramic coated headers, but was also suspecting the same solution. Insulating the steering column might be a simpler and a quick way to determine IF heat/expansion is the source of the symptom.
Now,....off to search for a means to insulate the ¾" shaft which has 5/8" clearance from the header.
Any suggestions anyone?
Thanks to all!

[rbgray1]

What you're describing sounds exactly like Ujoint phasing, are both or all three depending on your set-up, of your sector shaft joints in the same "phase"?

According to many engineering discussions on the forum and from various steering part suppliers the joints should be 90 degrees out of phase.

You should contact Flaming River or Ididit for their feedback. There is also a very lengthy forum discussion on this that I remember reading about a year ago. Some very good information from Automotive Engineers. Just do a search on steering in the forum general area.

Also, I would not wrap the sector shaft and or ujoints with heat tape at all. I would be more concerned with the wrap degrading over time and jamming the ujoint while driving causing a very dangerous issue. If heat is the issue, you could make a heat shield to deflect heat from the header away from the sector shaft, but I would personally NEVER wrap heat reflective material on the steering shaft at all fearing a potential binding problem in the steering while driving.

[rbgray1]

TWOOD,

Also, I see you live in Chardon. I'm in Bay Village if you ever want to see my steering set-up. Another great idea is go directly to Flaming River, they are in Berea on Bagley Rd about 1 mile west of I-71.

I've spoken with them many times and they are extremely helpful. They have engineers and customer service staff on site. I'm sure if you drive your car there they will help you quickly. Probably a 30 min drive from Chardon.

[MaSnaka]

TWood,
You might want to relieve the slip joints in the shaft and give a little slack so when it does get hot it has some room to go. I don't mean to leave them loose, just reset. With out seeing your set up...number of joints, pad block, etc. it's hard to diagnose. Are all the ujoints good? I don't think heat is the issue. It may be causing the problem but something else isn't right. My steering shaft is less than 1" from the header without any problems. Good luck.

John

[s_reynolds]

TWood, I had a similar problem only more severe than what you noted. It turned out to be a bad rack. Put some grease on a couple of garbage bags and fold them over and put them under the front wheels so they will move easily when you turn the steering wheel. I wanted the weight of the car on the wheels while trouble shooting the problem. Then use a heat gun and apply heat to first one end of the rack and after it is heated turn the steering wheel to see if you have the problem you noted and then do the other end of the rack. I found that my rack was binding on the passenger end of the rack when heated. Installed new rack and problem solved. You can also apply heat to the steering joints to check if there is a problem there.

[C5GTO]

I had a similar symptom on my CRL one time after I had pulled the steering column to work on the brake vacuum booster. After re-assembly, there were spots during the turning of the steering wheel where I could feel some binding but only in spots.

Upon further inspection, I found the the splined end of the steering column shaft was inserted too far into the upper U joint and the shaft contacted the U joint cross at a couple of points while turning. On contact, it became harder to turn, no contact, no binding.

The fix was to loosen the U joint bolt, use a large screw driver to add clearance, and re-tighten the bolt to maintain clearance. No problem at all after that.

I don't know if you have a similar problem but I'd suggest you try to rule out simple things like this before big changes or wholesale replacements.

[TWOOD]

Ok, guys.....I have inspected, measured, and disassembled the sterring shaft fro the column to the input shaft of the rack and pinion.
Here's what I have learned.
The lower U-joint needle bearings appear to be a bit sloppy.
The two yokes attached to the steering shaft are about 30°'s out of alignment (phase).
I understand they should be in line with each other.
Also, both u-joint are welded to the shaft. Flaming River says that u-joint should never be welded.
Probably will focus on the out of phase yokes and replace all from top to bottom.
Will then have the opportunity to create greater clearance between the shaft and the header, by going with a different configuration.
Plan to do a coupler off the input shaft, Shaft, U-Joint, Shaft, U-joint to column.
Should change clearance from 5/8" to better then 3".
Curious if all other Classic Roadsters were configured the same as mine, with only u-joint, shaft, u-joint connecting the column to the input shaft.
Thanks to every one for chiming in!

[trularin]

I had this exact same problem.

Took my car to Ididit - they replaced the end bushing. It got a little better, but not fixed.

Ended up putting a shield under the steering column. My headers are directly under the steering tube.

Seems to have done the trick.

Hope this helps.

Tru

[MaSnaka]

I replaced the original steering shaft assembly as well. Installed a pad block because I have 3 u-joints. Much better than the original set up. I was able to carefully grind off the welds on the original shaft assemble to disassemble (welds were called for in the manual) but I decided to just replace with new.

John

[rbgray1]

Originally Posted by TWOOD

Ok, guys.....I have inspected, measured, and disassembled the sterring shaft fro the column to the input shaft of the rack and pinion.
Here's what I have learned.
The lower U-joint needle bearings appear to be a bit sloppy.
The two yokes attached to the steering shaft are about 30°'s out of alignment (phase).
I understand they should be in line with each other.
Also, both u-joint are welded to the shaft. Flaming River says that u-joint should never be welded.
Probably will focus on the out of phase yokes and replace all from top to bottom.
Will then have the opportunity to create greater clearance between the shaft and the header, by going with a different configuration.
Plan to do a coupler off the input shaft, Shaft, U-Joint, Shaft, U-joint to column.
Should change clearance from 5/8" to better then 3".
Curious if all other Classic Roadsters were configured the same as mine, with only u-joint, shaft, u-joint connecting the column to the input shaft.
Thanks to every one for chiming in!

TWOOD,
I am very happy you went this route and dug in to the root causes, especially since you're in the Cleveland Area and Flaming River is a short drive away from your home. They are very helpful and I was confident they could help you reconfigure correctly.
The thought of wrapping the shaft with heat tape made me nervous due to the potential for failure or binding at the worst possible time and potential catastrophic result. Good luck with the upgrade and if you ever need anything, reach out...I'm in Bay Village and have my CR1 completely down to the frame going through a upgrades and rebuild after initial build 27 years ago.

[MaSnaka]

Twood,
From what I understand about your new configuration, the coupler connecting the input shaft to the first section of shaft will be supporting all the weight from the entire assembly. I would suggest you install a pad block midway that supports and stabilizes your assembly. I did without too much difficulty, no welding, and I am very pleased with the results and added stability it provides. I used a u-joint to connect the input to the first section giving me a total of 3 u-joints. Without the pad block the whole thing just flopped down. I was shocked at how much weight the original set up was supporting at the coupler.

John

[TWOOD]

Location of my problem FINALLY identified.
AFTER I replaced everything from the end of the steering column to the input shaft with no improvement.
Here's what I did to solve the sporadic and intermittent heat related binding.
I drove the car until up to temperature and then drove at 40-45 mph until the binding began. Drove home and measured the temperature (laser thermometer) of the bushing at the end of the steering column (125° F), the the casting in the area of the input shaft and driver side rack bearing (150° F).
Then I followed S. Reynolds suggestion.
Got the wheels off the ground with everything cool and used a heat gun to apply heat to each of those areas, got the temps up to the readings I found and,....nothing. No binding. SO,...I do the same to the passenger side casting area where the internal )plastic?) bushing is located, and at 125° F, I get the binding that I would only experience when driving relatively slow.
I pulled the boot off the end of the rack and pinion and can see the white (bushing or seal) recessed in 2". Shaft appears dry. Applied some high temp synthetic caliper slide grease. Seemed to be better, but things were already cooling down. Will test on the road.
Talking to Flaming River Tech. was not very helpful. They claim no knowledge of this ever seeing this problem. They do not provide and drawing of the internal components or construction or parts lists. Will not tell you how to disassemble and replace a bushing.
BUT, they will do a complete rebuild for $150-200.
Wondering of the shaft is oversized or the bushing is under sized. No help from Flaming River in that area.
By the way, this problem occured from the time I got the car on the road 10 years ago and the rack & pinion was new out of the box from the factory.
Thanks to everyone for their 2 cents of advice and suggestions.

Follow up Comment: had the opportunity to drive in the fall on a warm day and the symptom returned when driving slow(35-45mph) on a warm day (upper 70's).
Convinced that heat build up on the passenger side of rack causes internal bushing to bind due to expansion of bushing and or cast alum. housing. Put car away for winter, wheels off, up on stands, boot pulled back, grease cleaned out (that I had added and seemed to help a bit). Cannot see any retaining clip. can see what appears to be a grease seal. Assuming that a bushing resided behind that.
Options: remove entire rack and pinion and have Flaming River rebuild, hoping that they can correct. Or look into ducting fresh air onto the casting to help kep it cooler. Shielding the casting from the radiator would require a shroud from bottom of radiator, up about 6" to above the casting on the rack. Possible to do both. All options extremely UGLY.
Inclined to have rack rebuilt and tell them to open up the tolerance on that bushing.
Appreciate any comments, thoughts, or suggestions.