econo-fix for front suspension

[jwinkler]

Hi all -

I've just been through every CR topic that matched a search on coils and springs, and haven't found the answer, mostly because everyone is heading in a coil-over direction.

I'm looking for a quick fix to adjust my front ride height. Ultimately, I want to get the Don/DV 4-corner coil-over setup, but we've got a big Cobra gathering coming up, and I'd like to simply get the car set up to code.

The attached image shows how high the front fender sits above the tire - my guess is that when it was built (turn-key in Fargo circa 1992), they didn't cut off the 1.5 turns recommended in the build manual. I tried to locate the recommended '72 Pinto 1600cc springs, but that doesn't seem to be a reference that computes with Autozone et al. Can Don or DV post the correct height for front springs? I've gleaned from other discussions on this that 350lbs is the spring rate I need for a 351 (although *please* correct me if I'm wrong here). A part number that I could use at Autozone and/or Summit would be most appreciated.

Also, using a spring compressor, is it pretty straight forward to change them? Had the wheel off, and with that and the build manual, it looks like (with the compressor in place) I could detach the shock and bottom spindle attachment, and be good to go. Is it too much to hope for that it would be this easy?

Thanks,

JLW

PS - also increased my rear ride height by turning the monster bolts in the rear - that was pretty neat. As much as the front was too high, the rear fender was almost sitting on top of the wheel!

[Bill E]

I have several set of spring that were taken out of CR. cars when we changed them to coilovers If you pay the shipping i will send you a set Bill E 530-275-0435

[dscott]

jwinkler, The coils I use are a 12" 250 lb Mustang II. The tire sits about 2" below the fender lip. The spring will settle over time and reduce this height by about an inch. I have yet to find a spring compressor that will work properly. I made one from 1/2" ready rod with a piece of chain welded at the end. If you remove the shock and slide this rod in it's place, run a bolt through the lower shock mount hole through the chain, put a washer and nut on the rod where it goes through the upper shock mount. You can then raise and lower the lower control arm once you remove the lower ball joint from the spindle. This will let you safely lower the arm and remove the spring. Give me a call if this doesn't make any sense and I'll try and explain it.
Don 1-888-722-6272

[jwinkler]

Well, I've decided (almost a year after the fact) that I'm ready to switch the springs. I spent last night examining the spindle and control arm assembly, and think I'm ready to do it, although naturally, not without questions!

I like Don's idea, but since I don't have access to that sort of tool, I will go the spring compressor route. If I do that, can I leave the shock in place to keep the spring from jumping out of its mount if the compressor isn't put on right? Also, it looks like I should be able to undo the bottom spindle castle nut to drop the lower control arm - is this right, and when it's time to put it back, can someone tell me what the torque specs are for that bolt (standard MustangII setup)?

Thanks,

JLW

[Jack21]

Your fender sits too high and needs to be lowered. Remember, you have about a 2:1 ratio on compressed spring height to fender height. Do this conservatively. You can cut a piece of the spring off, but you can't weld it back on again if you cut too much off.

Looks like a take the existing springs out, cut them, and put them back in. Go 1/2 coil at a time, and remember, like Don said, the springs will settle about an inch in service.

My experience with the front coils on the CR Cobra is a spring compressor is not necessary. I have a spring compressor, and on most other cars it IS necessary. Support the car from the frame with jackstands. Take the shock out. Support the lower control arm with a floor jack. Drop the control arm until there is just tension on it so the ball joint will separate. Take pickle fork & sledge, and separate. As you lower the floor jack supporting the control arm, the spring will fall out. More often than not, you'll damage the rubber grease boot, so have a couple of spares on hand.

[Excaliber]

I lowered my Excal with a 5.0, which is basically a CR by changing the springs in front. I used the Mustang II with V6 and A/C spec to order new springs. The coils were WAY to close together to use a compressor. The install was pretty simple actually. Took off the shocks. Unbolted the lower ball joint, slid the spring in place. Used my floor jack to compress the spring by jacking up the lower arm and re-installed the ball joint castle nut.

Dont know the weight rating on the spring, but it was very stout. I cut the length to 10". This lowered the car to about 3.5", really LOW and stiffly sprung. Which was EXCELLENT for the SCCA stuff I was doing. Speed bumps were a nightmare, ride was harsh, handling was awesome! I was runing a 245X45X16" Yokohama Auto-X tire which was one inch shorter than the previous 255X50X16" Yoko tire. The larger tire raised the ride hieght and rubbed. The 245 was perfect! SO TIRE SIZE is a big factor here!

10" spring was hard to get into place. How the heck would a 12" fit????

Ernie

[petek]

JLW,

Working with compressed springs scare the poop out of me. Maybe it's all those Physics classes I took, maybe it's just because I don't know what the heck I'm doing.

But ... removing the front springs, cutting a coil off, and re-installing can be done without brown-staining your shorts

Do what Jack21 says. The only things I'd add are: build yourself a jack screw to separate the ball joint ( http://www.birch.net/~petek/cobra/207/jul4.htm ). Disconnect the strut rod (is that what it's called) in order to achieve full droop on the lower arm. Tie the spring to the upper control arm with some stout tubular nylon (or good rope). My springs didn't drop out, I had to really push on the lower arm and spring to pop 'em out.

Pictures at: http://www.birch.net/~petek/cobra/208/aug1.htm

I cut a full coil out but I think the spacing between the fender and tire was a bit more than yours.

best of luck!

[jwinkler]

Thanks for the info - I wasn't aware that the bottom spindle bolt was such a bear to separate. Any online source that has an exploded view of the MII front suspension?

Also, would unbolting the shock so that the lower arm can drop, but leaving it in place act as any sort of insurance against the spring going ballistic?

Finally, I forgot to mention (and for that I apologize profusely) that Bill Emerson sent me some springs (and some rear shocks) that he had sitting in his garage from doing coil-over conversions. The caliber of help and advice on this board is only surpassed by the caliber of the contributors.

Thanks again!

JLW

PS - Outstanding build journal, Petek!

[Double Venom]

JW,

Here's my trick. Taught from an old guy long, long ago. You do NOT need a spring compressor! Mostly, like Don says, I have yet to find one that will work. So what do you do to make it safe?

Get a small chain, real chain, loop it through the spring, bringing it back together over part of the frame. Bolt the two ends of the chain together, keeping the chain fairly tight with just a few links worth loose. (About an inch or so of being slack)

Raise the car up, jacks placed under each front frame rail, remove the front tires. Now it gets real interesting. Remove the cotter key to the lower spindle ball joint, loosen the nut right up to the top of the threads of the ball joint, leave at least enough threads where the stud is level with the top of the nut.

Now look at the front of the spindle close to where the tie rod fits onto it. See a big flat spot, about an inch square? Get yourself a short 2 1/2 lb. or short 5 lb. hammer. Now hit the flat spot and I mean hit it hard! It may take a few whacks, but I assure you the ball joint shaft will "pop" loose and go down.

After you regain your compsure, (remember the nut on the ball joint and the chain?) from a loud pop, you simply place the jack under the front spindle, raise it up a little, remove the shock at the top and start to let the jack back down. If you have enough slack in the chain you should be able to remove the jack then simply pry out the spring.

Then cut, via cutoff tool, hacksaw (uggh!) or anything but a torch, a full coil off the top of the spring.

That's it...took longer to type this than it does to do it! I actually remove 1 1/4 coils from the old coils that CR's used to supply.

DV...haven't seen a ball joint tool/fork that wont rip the rubber seal.

Call if you have any questions! 740-852-5280

[petek]

DV... here's a tool that won't mess up the rubber seal.



Some all-thread (1/2" if I remember correctly) and a couple of couplers. I cut off about 1/4" of all thread and used some blue loctite to anchor the 1/4" pieces into the couplers. Then another length of all thread to connect the two couplers.



The just put the toll between the upper and lower ball joints with the nut on the lower ball joints backed off to nearly flush with the top of the threaded portion of the ball joint.. Crank on the couplers on the "tool" to cause the tool to increase in length. A LOT less, um, noise than the hammer method

[Double Venom]

Pete!
Really cool, but I would have been done by now!
DV

[Jack21]

Petek, you're absolutely right. I took the same physics classes you did, and my first spring job was done with brown shorts after reading all the warnings in the manuals. That was '67, and have done a few others since. Worst was an Olds diesel.

If the spring is at all compressed when it releases from the suspension (or releases from the spring compressor installing the new spring), all the bad things will happen.

The first pair of springs on the Cobra, I used DV's technique of putting a chain around it to "Catch" it, just in case. On the Cobra, however, the spring was completely uncompressed by the time the control arm was low enough to release the spring. It literally falls out. Even with the strut rod in place, pressing it down with a breaker bar will give you enough clearance to remove the spring if it doesn't fall out onto the floor on its own.

But I think we all agree by now, coil-overs are the way to do this from a ride quality, and maintenance perspective.

[petek]

You betcha! Coil overs are on my to-do list.

DV... yep, but I've got a real neat tool now

[jwinkler]

Is there anything besides the lower spindle bolt that needs to be undone? At the moment, the tie rod, roll bar, and steering tie rod (is that right?) are all still attached, along with the caliper and brake line.

I removed the shock, and loosened the castle nut per DV's instruction. (I also chained the spring to the frame!) Then I found the flat spot where the tie rod attaches to the lower control arm, and started whacking away (I used a 1/2" drive extender with a 3/4" socket on the end to reach the spot, but nothing moved. It does look like it hasn't been apart since it was built in 1992 (I know I haven't done anything to it since '96). Before calling it a night, I doused the spindle bolt in WD-40. I'd love to use PeteK's expander idea, but with the caliper and brake line in place, I don't have a parallel surface to brace against.

Which raises another question - is the caliper only held on by the two obvious bolts (one parallel to the brake disc at the top of the caliper, and one orthagonal at the bottom)? Is there anything else that I would need to do (besides support the caliper by something other than the brake line) to remove it? Are the pads off the disc by default, or do they need to be moved out?

Finally, when it comes time to put everything back together, is there a source for torque specs for:
shock - top nut and bottom bolt
lower spindle castle nut
(potentially) brake caliper bolts

Thanks for all past and future help -

JLW

[petek]

JLW,

I unbolted the caliper (two bolts if memory serves) and hung the calipers to the upper A-arm with a length of wire. I also backed the nut off of the strut rod to free the strut rod up so the lower arm would drop down far enough.

With the brake caliper out of the way my nifty tool should work OK for you ... just make sure you get the thing wedged between the upper and lower ball joints ... and leave the nut on the lower ball joint (back the nut off all the way to the top of the threads).

Best of luck ... been there!

[Bill E]

JLW DV,s method will work. The idea is to shock the joint and bounce the pin out. remove the caliper and roater so you can get a good swing If that doesn't not work use a sledgehammer as a block on the other side then hit it, should do the trick. let us know how it go, s

[Excaliber]

When I changed mine one side was a bear, the other popped right out. I got a BIGGER hammer and CLOBBERED that sucker until it finally popped on the bad side. No chain,,,I used a floor jack with about a 1/4'' clearance between the top of the jack and the bottom of the lower a-frame. Plus I leave the castle nut screwed on a few threads so it won't pop out to far anyway. Heck, I always do it that way.

Ernie

[jwinkler]

So what finally got the lower control arm loose was a combination of petek's tool and the persuader. I had tried pounding, and due to a combination of timidity and weakness on my part, never got the spindle bolt to budge. I put together petek's tool, and tightened it until the wrench I was using started rounding off the coupler nut, and then went back to the hammer. Two quick pops, and it came loose.

Then it turned out the stabilizer bar (which may not go back in, partly because DV says it's not 100% needed, and partly because jacking up the lower control arm actually lifts the car off the jack stand before the spring is compressed enough to make it easy to connect the bar again!) was keeping the contro arm from dropping. After disconnecting the bar, the arm dropped as far as it could, and the spring still was not free. I guess this does confirm my suspicions that when CR built it they used uncut springs, but didn't help with removing it.

At this point, I pull out the spring compressor that I didn't think I'd need, and fought it into place. However, even after compressing the spring a good 3/4", it's still not compressed enough to clear the lip in the control arm.

I'm very close at this point to cutting my losses, bolting it back together, and paying someone who actually *can* do this to swap the springs!

JLW

PS - not particularly wanting to do this again, does Bethania garage have the hot setup for coil-overs? I don't particularly care that they are chromed. Bill Emerson - are you still online? I didn't see a parts list at http://www.beyondcobra.com/index.html.

Thanks,

JLW

[petek]

Hey you're 90% there already! Did you disconnect the drag strut (or what ever that thing is called). It connects to the lower A arm and to then back to the chassis. That thing can hold the lower A arm in a high enough position that the A arm won't drop all of the way.

When I pulled out my (too long) springs I ended up in about the same shape that you're in right now... jack all the way down and still the A arm wasn't low enough to release all of the tension on the spring.

Make sure the spring is tied down with a chain or tubular nylon strap and then push down on the lower A arm with your foot while either prying or just pulling on the spring (I pried the bottom of the spring with a BF screwdriver). (Oh, make sure the chassis is on a set of jack stands as you aren't even using the floor jack at this point).

Once you've cut a coil off of the spring you'll find that the spring goes in MUCH easier!

Been there, done that, know EXACTLY how you're feeling!

[Jack21]

I got my coil overs, and lower control arms from RCC http://www.dwayne9.addr.com/, and my upper control arm brackets from bethania garage. Uppers are Heidts, but RCC's are comparible. You really do need all of this to do a creditable job on a Cobra front suspension. Bethania brackets let you do an alignment like normal cars, and keep it where it was set. RCC does have what they call and alignment saver, but it didn't look too sturdy. DV, and Don Scott turned me on to Bethania's bracket set up.

Still looking for Koni coil overs, and someone on this forum gave me part numbers for the Koni's he used.

The Carrerras really aren't bad. Not as adjustable as Koni's but they work OK. 375 lb springs are a little on the stiff side for a mostly aluminum 351W but they're OK.

No deep pockets here, this was out of desparation. Cutting up springs was getting me nowhere. RCC, after speaking with rather long winded Dwayne for about an hour seemed to have the CR Cobra front suspension sorted out. His pieces fit, worked as advertized, prices weren't bad, and are still on the car.