Viper V-10 in Classic Roadsters Kit....

JimP · #1 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 03:05 PM

Well, after looking at every engine on the earth... and laying out pro's and con's for each, I have made my decision. I'm going to buy a Viper V10 crate engine, transmission and associated parts from Mopar Performance. Any words of wisdom? Double Venom?

Does anyone provide Parts (Motor Mounts, Transmission mount or exhaust headers) for this installation? (big block chassis) I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have too!

DV - what happened to your web site? www.cobras.com... cannot find any pics on V10 cobra?

Thanks,

Jim

Mr.Fixit · #2 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 03:37 PM

I must admit, I have no experience with the dodge V-10. But a good friend of mine has been a mopar dealer mechanic since before vipers came out, and had to go to "viper school" he has nothing but bad things to say about that motor. "Truck motor, doesn't like to rev to 6000, steel flywheel, crappy powerband, blah blah blah." As for the challenge of doing something different, congratulations to anyone who has, or is willing to. Seems kinda labor intensive without much benefit, asides from being different. But, in a world full of copies, kudos to the originals.

Double Venom · #3 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 04:18 PM

Mr. Fixit, the only similiarity to the Dodge truck V10 and the Viper V10 is that they are both 10 cylinders. The block isn't the same, the valve train is not the same, nothing is the same!

No offense to your Mopar mechanic, but if he is that familiar with them he should know there is no similarity.

My DV Cobra runs 11.01 in the quarter, pulls the front wheels in first and second gear, red lines at 6,800 / 7,200, (maximum torque occurs at 5,800 to 6,200) and hits 128 mph in the quarter. All this on an absolutely stock motor. Crappy motor? I think not.

Jim,
Obviously this mating is not for the faint at heart. You will have to modify the frame where the transmision goes - only. You will have to make your own motor/frame mounts. You can now buy all the parts you need through mopar preformance, engine harness, computer, etc. The headers are all hand made. Sorry, but we don't ship anything for these out of house.

Our web site has been converted to the Fling. We are in the middle of creating an entire new web site for www.cobras.com, we've changed service providers and when all this is done... cobras.com will be back in force.

Feel free to ask for help if you want/need it, I will try to do what I can.

DV - Building, designing and fixing them for over 30 years

niles · #4 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 04:32 PM

JimP:

Randy Hunter of Hunter cobra cars just finished putting a viper V10 in a Hunter and had it at Carlisle show.
email me if you want addional info

gn

Mr.Fixit · #5 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 05:10 PM

DV,
The quotes from the dealer mechanic was referring to the viper's V-10, he thinks of it as a truck motor (low revving, gobs of bottom end torque, blah blah blah). Anyway, I was sure somebody would have a difference of opinion on that motor. I have none really due to lack of any experience with it in particular, that's why I gave a source for the stated negative opinion. Just think it's funny that a mopar mechanic has such strong dislike for the best motor they are selling in a car nowadays. 128 mph ain't bad in the 1320. Congrats on all the fab work necessary to get it all together. What's the ballpark price on a crate V-10 viper motor anyway?

Fred Douglass · #6 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 08:17 PM

DV,
I second Fixit's question---and raise one: what is the difference in length/width of the V-10 and a 351W block (also a bb)?

mkcobra · #7 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 09:25 PM

I would only interject that the engines main job is supply power, would it not be best to do it in a lightweight, big torque ,high horse power fashion , then consider cost , sound and price. lastly difficulty of install. I agree with originallity but not to cost of having a car not worth owning. IE.. Blown Pacer.very original but not my taste. with the power options of stroked small blocks and stroked big blocks crate or otherwise it would seem more practicle to use more standard options and modify it rather than using a sqaure block for the round hole approach. It would be nice to see a jet propelled Cobra just not for me to own. good luck on which ever you choose. I am waiting on antigravity motion. no engine needed earth pulling power and lightweight.

Excaliber · #8 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 01:50 AM

I like more pistons, 10 is OK,,,,,12 is better, ha ha.

Ernie

JimP · #9 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 06:32 AM

Certainly price was a large consideration in the search for an engine. From the start I deceided I was going to put fuel injection on whatever engine I would choose. I want stying of 60's with modern technology. I originally wanted to build an all aluminum, 351W bored and stroked to 427ci with fuel injection. Beliveve me, this came out to be higher priced than the Viper V10 crate engine. Built engine was around $16,000 and around $12,000 if I buy the short block and build the rest with edelbrock components.

I also looked at an LS1 crate engine ($5,700 complete with wiring and computer) and an LS6 crate engine ($7,800 w/no computer/wiring harness). But the LS1 was a little short in the power department so add a supercharger and your up to around $12,000. The LS6 would have been adequate but add wiring harness and computer and your going to be aroud 9,000 for everything, and it's chevy so that's a big disadvantage for a Cobra, plus the LS1/LS6 is almost too light for the car because they are all aluminum (rearward CG).

So I had deceided to by a Iron block 351w bored/stroked to 427 with fuel injection. Total was around $9,000 complete. If I wanted aluminum block it would have been $3,000 more. Not worth it, because your paying more and ending up with rear CG. No advantage except to be able to say it's an aluminum block.

So after doing extensive research I found the Viper V10 crate engine for $11,500 add computer, wiring harness, fuel pump, transmission mount, installation manual etc.. and your up to $13,000. Next the viper transmission (6spd) is $2,500. The richmond gear transmission I was going to buy was aroound $3,500 so I gained $1,000 back. Total being around $15,500 for complete Viper engine and transmission. I've got $5,600 into wheels and tires and $2,800 into brakes, Carerra coilovers front and rear, stainless steel "A" arms on this thing so the amount I'm spending on the engine sounds about right. I haven't been able to determine what the engine weights but it's all aluminum with 2 more cylinders than a V8, so I would assume it's the same weight as a Iron block V8 or maybe slightly less?

As far as modern technology that deserves to be in a cobra, I think the viper engine is it. And for a few thousand more I can't pass it up.

DV - you mentioned modifing the frame for the transmission. Are you just talking about the mount? or does the transmission interfere with the frame rails somehow? Also, how many V10 cobra's have you built? Just one? Do you still own it or did you sell it?

Thanks,

Jim

JimP · #10 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 09:26 AM

Just for anyone else who is intereted. With pricing in hand I attempted to place my order today. Problem - no stock. All 40 warehouses show 0 stock. All sold out because of 2003 model changes. From what I have been told by more than one provider is that I will have to wait a few months before they start getting in the 2003 Viper engines. My only other choice is to find someone who has one in stock (not likely for cheap). They aren't expecting the pricing to change much with the 2003. The new engine is bored and stroked up from 488ci to 505ci. Not sure I really need the extra 50hp, but at least I'll have a current production engine.

The pricing on this engine varies tremendously. Pricing ranged from $11,500 all the way up to $18,000. List is around $16,800. Interesting, a race shop gets Mopar Performance products at a different cost than a regular Mopar Performance provider like a Chrysler dealer. My local dealer wanted $14,900 but I found race shops selling at just over their cost at $11,500 and $11,995. I think the company selling it for 18,000 probably has one in stock and knows you can't get it anywhere else.

I'll keep you posted when I have the engine in my garage. Might not be till after the first of the year. I'm in no hurry, I have plenty to keep me busy!

Mr.Fixit · #11 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 09:55 AM

You can certainly buy a 500 hp motor for $12 grand, other than a viper V-10. but then you lose the fun of having to have custom $800 headers made, and everything else. I like the idea because it's a challenge, but going custom always costs a bit more. But that's usually considered worthwhile once you open the hood and people line up to see it.

cobrashoch · #12 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 10:45 AM

JimP - If you wait that 3 months the wait may be worth it. The new Viper motors are 500 cu/in and have 500 ponys. I too am curious about the weight of that motor, but it can't be any heavier than a 385 iron head motor. Also there is a performance network out there that knows how to get another 100 ponys or so out of those engines cheap and easy. If Memory serves me right those Viper crate engines all come with the ascessorys to. That is BIG on the expense list.

Mr Fixit - Your buddys dead wrong about Viper motors, as they lead the way for latest thinking about big block thinking and performance. From the head port arrangment to the unbalanced firing order they are in line with current modern thinking of performance engines. We really have came a long way since those 60/70's muscle car days. (OUCH!*%^$@#*&^$#) I hate it to!

JimP - The fabracation issue is a overstated issue I have found. You will find guys that will do this stuff for you. What they are not telling you though is to build a car this way is VERY time consuming though. Your not going to be in a Cobra in the usial 3 to 9 months build times. It will be more like 1 1/2 to 2 years to do this thing right if your objective is to keep the costs down. By the by, when it comes to light weight motors in the front of a Cobra you can't have a "too lightweight" motor. To my way of thinking a LS/6 light weight may counter any advantages you gain over a V10. With the possible exception of the WOW factor and resale value when that time comes.
cobrashock

lust4fia · #13 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 11:21 AM

JimP,
You might consider calling Roanoke Motors (big in Vipers) at 800-541-6858. I know they have a Viper engine on display in the showroom. I think it came out of a wrecked car. I don't remember seeing a computer and harness however. I don't know if it's for sale but it might be worth a try.

Todd

Mr.Fixit · #14 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 11:54 AM

Since I am outright admitting complete ignorance to the dodge V-10 a few questions for those in the know:

What is so different about them that makes them lead the way in the latest thinking about BB engines?

500 cid / 500 hp what's the big deal about that, one hp per cid?

I am curious, so please don't mistake this for my usual smart @ss, devil's advocate replies to well thought out staterments, made just for the sake of keeping the information flowing.

Back in Black · #15 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 12:03 PM

The ease with which this system (Viper V-10) could be troubleshot. There are factory trained Dodge mechanics with the exact program on their diagnostic computers...just waiting to work on such a cobra. Sure would be easier than the hassle the EFI has been for my car...

That is, if I ever get my car

Sizzler · #16 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 12:12 PM

my two cents: if the GM engines are out partially because they are GM engines which you don't want to use in a 'Ford' Cobra, then why is a MOPAR engine OK? Second, since we're adding up costs and you're up to what? $16K in the motor alone and looking at a minimum of a year's time to build and fit everything plus the cost of the kit itself and all its parts, why not just buy a used Viper for $30K or so? Everything's done, it's together, driveable, registration problems disappear, and let's face it, it's basically the same thing albeit modernized.
Don't flame me, just wondering out loud.

By the way, still wondering out loud: I received a VERY strange email from a "cobra@si-net.com". I don't know if I'm the person being blackmailed or the bugbear virus passed along some "sent" message from "cobra", but I'd be interested in knowing who has that email address.

Getting back to the V-10, why not put this huge FORD engine in there if you want the max:

Ford AL OHC 1000+

petek · #17 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 12:33 PM

How about a Viper V10 powered Lotus 7?

Back on the serious side, maybe somebody can fill me in with the correct scoop. I had read or heard some place that the V10 operated as two individual 5 cylinder motors and that's why the motor has a "funny" exhaust sound. Comments?

justa6 · #18 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 12:38 PM

You could put in a Buick V6 which makes the same horsepower with 274 cubic inches. Unloads the front end and revs to 8,000 RPM...

Oh and goes 10's in the 1/4 mile...

To each his own...

All kidding aside I think it would be a great project. I love "different"...

Regards,

JimP · #19 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 12:48 PM

Sizzler....

Good question.. don't really have an answer. Just seems like Ford People dislike Chevy and Chevy people dislike Ford. Most of the Cobra builders are also ford people so they tend to frown on Chevy. Mopar is probably just as bad but has been a third wheel in the slamming between Ford and Chevy, thats if you compare Chevy, Ford and Mopar 40 year old technology small blocks. Were talking Viper engine here. The Viper was designed from day one to be the modern day cobra so it's more accepted even though it is Mopar. Also shelby has done alot of things with Ford and Mopar. Don't know of any connections with Chevy. I do like the LS1/LS6 option and they are probably my second choice right now but I think for a few thousand more and 2 more cylinders the Viper engine is worth it. If the engine alone was $16,000 that would not be worth it but for $11,500 I'll pay the extra money.

As for buying a $30,000 viper? Their is a diffence between a new engine and a used one and I'd much rather speed $30,000 building a cobra than 30,000 on a used vehicle. Their are alot of cars I could purchase instead of building a Cobra. I like to build, I like to be unique and I love the Cobra! Just searching for the best modern technology engine for the money.

flipper35 · #20 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 01:18 PM

The Viper is also heavier than a Cobra by several hundred pounds. Jim is getting a more powerful engine than the used car and it's going in a lighter car. Two plusses in my book. Of course I have a biased opinion on this Mopar thing anyway.