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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2003, 11:26 AM
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Default Current setup

Whoa...the duct hose pictured is useless. You have to have it about an inch away from the caliper/rotor surface. Wedge that hose in there! Most racecars have the duct hoses smashed up in the suspension pieces, but double check that you are not impeding any linkage operation, while maintaining good airflow.
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:36 AM
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My brake cooling duct comes into the front of the caliper. Coming in from the back the "wind" is being forced toward the rear of the car, away from the rotors.

I'm changing pads to a higher temp! As DV suggested, if your pedal is still hard, it's the pads! I'm running Yokohama auto x tires, there pretty sticky compared to any street tire I've run!

Next step if that doesn't do it:
Vented rotors (sure hope I can still use the high dollar four pot Wilwood calipers with those)!

Ernie

EDIT:
Tapered pads. You won't be able to tell until they get some decent "wear" on them. One end will be thinner than the other end. This is most often a problem associated with single pot calipers. With a four pot Wilwood I think you will be fine.

Brake hose: Yeah, it's EASY to say it has to be really close to the rotor, and it's DARN hard to get it there without it being all pinched up on the end! Do the best you can. I don't count heavily on ducting to help "that much", but I'll take all I can get! As the rotor temps increase so the cooling duct efficiency also increases. With high temp pads, expect much greater rotor temps, so ANY cooling duct action will be beneficial. Keep those front wheel bearings packed with quality grease!

Last edited by Excaliber; 09-04-2003 at 11:44 AM..
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Old 09-04-2003, 01:55 PM
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Default OK...........

So we have pad fade. No big surprise there. Going from here we know that you need a higher temperature pad. But, we need to keep in mind your brake balance. I am not sure why you have a proportioning valve plumbed in the front lines. If it was me, I would take it out. You indicated that with both valves all the way open the front lock just before the rear so the balance of the system seems to be good.

You indicated that you use porterfield pads but you did not mention the compound. I am unable to locate a good chart with temperature and torque (CF) for these pads but seems to me that they are around CF of .485. This is very close to the CF of the D compound that you are running in the front. This combined with the position of your proportioning valve and the front wheels locking just before the rears, but all four locking, while the brakes are at a moderate temperature, leads me a couple of places.

I would not go to a higher CF pad in the front then you are running now. This would increase the brake torque beyond its current value and and with the system being balanced you would not be getting the most out of your rear brakes (higher CF pad will lower the pressure required to achieve maximum braking which also reduces the amount of pressure going to the rears and without a balance bar setup you can not correct this except by cutting down on the front pressure using the proportioning valve but the problem with that is the pressure decrease is not linear so the harder you push the bigger the pressure difference from front to rear PHEW).

If any thing, you will want your new pads to have basically the same CF or the rear to have more. And obviously a higher temperature range. Did you order your temp paint and strips yet??????

Where to go from here. Since you do not know what temperatures that you are experiencing, new pads will be a shot in the dark. You need to find out the temperature range of you rear pads. I am not aware of Wilwood making pads for your rear calipers so that brings you back to a company such as Porterfield for the fronts. I have always heard good thing about them. Unfortuniatly, most manufacturers, except Wilwood, seem to keep the torque vs temperature information a deep dark secret making it very difficult for us to get the right set the first time and nearly impossible to design a braking system on paper. So you can try a higher temp front pad with a CF of .5 or less (not a lot less! say .45 as a bottom). Temperature range you are going to be guessing. Considering the current pads work for as long as they do you don't want a pad that doesn't start working until 600 degrees!

Cooling ducts. I am afraid those aren't really helping. How they are supposed to be made: make a plate out of say 18 gauge steel that will mount to the spindle behind the rotor, covering the open center section of the rear of the rotor with about 1/8" of clearence to the rotor. Cut a hole in it and make a rigid duct that will allow you to attach the flexable duct with out getting in the way of the suspension. Blowing air on one side of a rotor is asking for trouble. This is for ventelated rotors. Ventilated rotors work like a centrafuge. (I know, my spelling sucks!)

While you have those rotors off, you can have them slotted. No need for a pretty pattern. Just two, per side, .030 deep by .060 wide slot cut with a ball on a mill running parrallel to each other on the rotor face. Do not cut the slot where is leaves the ID of the rotor, the pad contact area. This will 'wipe the fire band' and help with pad fade.

Tire temps seem a bit low, push it man!!!! I just wanted to make sure you where not over heating the tires which make them like driving on oil! Check for the proper range for that compound. If the temperature is even across the surface then you just need to push it harder!! Have fun!

Pad taper: When you pull the pads, measure the thickness at the leading and trailing edge of the pad, if the leading edge is thinner than the trailing, that is pad taper. This is caused by the leading running hotter than the trailing. If you notice some of the newer, higher performance calipers run two sized pistons leading to trailing with the smaller being in the leading edge. This is to combat pad taper. A badly tapered set of pads caused all sorts of things to happen, none of them good. If you have pad taper you can mill the pads flat and narrow the leading edge. How much you narrow it is trial and error. I start by figuring the difference between leading and trailing edge wear and remove that percentage from the leading edge tapering back to the trailing edge. This is only a starting point.

Just as an FYI, the 12.19" rotor is generally the largest that will fit in a fifteen inch wheel. Get the measurement from wilwood and measure first if you are thinking of doing this. But, if you do, realize that will all else being equal your system will now have a front bias issue that the only way currently available to you to get of is by using less of the front brakes. From what I am hearing, if you add any brake torque to the front, you are going to need to add some to the rear as well. What adds brake torque? Larger rotors, increase in clamping force, higher CF pads.

Rick
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Last edited by rdorman; 09-04-2003 at 02:06 PM..
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2003, 10:33 AM
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Gentlemen,

Thanks to all for the help. Rick, you are very generous with your time. You really do like this $h!t. I have not ordered the strips and paint yet. I want to try a different pad first. If that does not get me in the park I will do the science experiment.

Based on the comments, I called Wilwood. Tech suggests I start with an E pad. Should the E pad prove to be inadequate, move up to the J pad. I am going to try and get back on the track in Oct. I will report back on the results. I will also start working on a better cooling duct setup.
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:33 AM
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The E compound seems to be a reasonable choice from the CF standpoint. Realize that its CF is about .04 below the D compound so if you balance is set perfect right now, unchaged you will have a little more rear bias and also your peddle effort will be slightly higher. Some where on the order of about five pounds. With out knowing your specifics, this is just a guess.

The E compound is just a step up from the D. The D has a higher CF until 750 degrees (it starts downward begining at 600). From 750 to 1000, that is where the E compound pad will work better. From there it is the J pad. But with a peak CF of .58, that is a LOT more than you have now. About 14% more or 14% reduction in pressure required for the front. With rear bias being completely open you can not route more pressure to the rear.

Please let me know what you have to do with your bias settings with the new pads. It tell a lot!

The E compound is good to 1000 degrees. I know I keep mentioning the paint and strips but while you are in there swapping pads you might as well! Temp smart paint for the rotors and pads and the indicator strip kit for the calipers. Total of $46.00 from True Choice.

True Choice has all the cool stuff. It doesn't hurt that they are 15 minutes from my house either!

Remember I have a set of J pads that I am not using. Just way to darn dusty for my mainly street use. But keep in mind my comments about the balance and these pads CF. They GREATLY reduced peddle effort over the tan pads. To the tune of almost 20 pounds of peddle pressure. That is a bunch! I ordered them through Summit (or was it Jegs?)

If my description of the ducting wasn't understandable let me know and I will try and find some pictures. Depending on what kind of track racing you do try looking at some the full bodied race cars and you will see what I mean. I often see them where the ducts have to go under some of the suspension pieces. Just don't blow the air on one side of the rotor because the rotor will adopt a bowl shape because one side is hotter than the other! The air coming up through the rotor as described will help with the caliper.

Now go kick some butt!

Rick

When I get around to it, I am going to put all this stuff in a spread sheet and pass it out to everyone. These kind of question seem to come up a lot. If you have a data acquisition equipment I could even come up with a estimate of maximum brake temperatures.
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