Researching any info re: Paul Cunningham, Competition Cobra privateer

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I remain open to any and all possibilities, especially since as the Registrar, it is the facts that matter. (I.E., please note my ego has no say in this.) One must remember that in order to put together a factual history of anything, one has to rely on things that are documented by a paper trail, photos, or other hard evidence. Speculation and hope simply don't get the job done. So I will look forward to any fresh details whenever they might be found and presented. At that point the Registry entry for 2049 will be updated accordingly.

Ned,

Do you have a copy of, or digital version of, the Wesselink court case to review for factual information provided at trial? It seems to me that this should be a part of your official SAAC CSX2049 file since you refer to it in the history as iy now reads.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I remain open to any and all possibilities, especially since as the Registrar, it is the facts that matter. (I.E., please note my ego has no say in this.) One must remember that in order to put together a factual history of anything, one has to rely on things that are documented by a paper trail, photos, or other hard evidence. Speculation and hope simply don't get the job done. So I will look forward to any fresh details whenever they might be found and presented. At that point the Registry entry for 2049 will be updated accordingly.

Ned,
Do you have a copy of, or a digital version of the trial documents in the Wesselink court case you refer to in the current history as published in the Leaf Spring Cobra Registry? It seems to me that it is one of the most important documents that should be in the official SAAC Cobra Registry files as factual proof to back up the publication.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Which is why, I would wager, the notice of lien from Shelby was never seen by his distraught mother. My speculation (and this topic is now all about speculation) is that while Cunningham may have driven the car, he was given access to it perhaps as liberal as having his own keys, but never really owned it.

I sort of want to root for Michael's father having owned the car.

Now Shelby American knew who the legal owner was. It would be normal procedure for them to bug the legal owner to pick up the wreck on a periodic basis. And thinking about what MrMustang would do, Shelby American is probably invoicing the legal owner a monthly storage fee for their trouble, yet the legal owner is not responsive to picking up their abandoned wreck, nor paying the monthly storage fee. So if Shelby American is going to the trouble of getting a mechanics lien after 4 months, just how likely is it that the legal owner is going to respond if given notice that there is now a mechanics lien filed on the wreck that they have abandoned. How likely is it that owner is going to pay several months of storage fees on a wreck? I am going to say that there is probably a 99% chance that if the legal owner has abandoned the wreck, ignored picking up the wreck and had no intention of paying the monthly storage fees, that Shelby American eventually got the mechanics lien and sent the wreck to the junk yard.

Given that I believe that the most likely outcome is that legal owner had abandoned the wreck and that Shelby American got the mechanics lien, I also believe that it is highly unlikely that Ann Abidin was the legal owner on August 1963. It would make more sense for Ann to buy the wreck from the junk yard. Well I suppose it is possible that if she owned the car back in August of 1963, that she had a change of heart and repurchased the wreck from the junk yard because it was cheaper to do that they to pay months worth of storage fees at Shelby American to get the wreck.

Now if the legal owner just happened to be the distraught widow of Paul Cunningham, who really never wanted to see the car again, I could understand her ignoring Shelby American asking her to pick up the wreck and ignoring the monthly storage fee invoices.

So what happened next, who knows? How about this? Albert says to his mom Ann: "You know how I went down to the junk yard to get a used side mirror for the Edsel stationwagon that I accidently ripped off when backing out of the garage? Well, when I was at the junk yard I saw this really cool Cobra racecar with 'minor' damage that I bet I can easily fix." And the rest is history.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I sort of want to root for Michael's father having owned the car.

Now Shelby American knew who the legal owner was. It would be normal procedure for them to bug the legal owner to pick up the wreck on a periodic basis. And thinking about what MrMustang would do, Shelby American is probably invoicing the legal owner a monthly storage fee for their trouble, yet the legal owner is not responsive to picking up their abandoned wreck, nor paying the monthly storage fee. So if Shelby American is going to the trouble of getting a mechanics lien after 4 months, just how likely is it that the legal owner is going to respond if given notice that there is now a mechanics lien filed on the wreck that they have abandoned. How likely is it that owner is going to pay several months of storage fees on a wreck? I am going to say that there is probably a 99% chance that if the legal owner has abandoned the wreck, ignored picking up the wreck and had no intention of paying the monthly storage fees, that Shelby American eventually got the mechanics lien and sent the wreck to the junk yard.

Given that I believe that the most likely outcome is that legal owner had abandoned the wreck and that Shelby American got the mechanics lien, I also believe that it is highly unlikely that Ann Abidin was the legal owner on August 1963. It would make more sense for Ann to buy the wreck from the junk yard. Well I suppose it is possible that if she owned the car back in August of 1963, that she had a change of heart and repurchased the wreck from the junk yard because it was cheaper to do that they to pay months worth of storage fees at Shelby American to get the wreck.

Now if the legal owner just happened to be the distraught widow of Paul Cunningham, who really never wanted to see the car again, I could understand her ignoring Shelby American asking her to pick up the wreck and ignoring the monthly storage fee invoices.

So what happened next, who knows? How about this? Albert says to his mom Ann: "You know how I went down to the junk yard to get a used side mirror for the Edsel stationwagon that I accidently ripped off when backing out of the garage? Well, when I was at the junk yard I saw this really cool Cobra racecar with 'minor' damage that I bet I can easily fix." And the rest is history.

All but the last paragraph sounds very logical...

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

So what happened next, who knows? How about this? Albert says to his mom Ann: "You know how I went down to the junk yard to get a used side mirror for the Edsel stationwagon that I accidently ripped off when backing out of the garage? Well, when I was at the junk yard I saw this really cool Cobra racecar with 'minor' damage that I bet I can easily fix." And the rest is history.

Ken,

Are you off your meds, or did you find something buried behind the house that you are looking to claim a CSX number for

Asking for a friend.

Bill S.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

In all likelihood, Paul bought the Cobra on a handshake and never went back for the title. I myself have bought old race cars the same way (and have been burned).

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Ken,

Are you off your meds, or did you find something buried behind the house that you are looking to claim a CSX number for

Asking for a friend.

Bill S.

No. I am just an "Abnormal CC Member" as usual.

Hmm, does your friend happen to have an Edsel stationwagon?

But seriously, when you had your shop and told "customers" that if they didn't pay all the back monthly storage fees and pick up their abandoned car, you were going to get a mechanics lien, did any of those customers ever pay back monthly storage fees and pick up their car? Or did you just end up getting a mechanics lien and never hear from them again?

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Ned,
Do you have a copy of, or a digital version of the trial documents in the Wesselink court case you refer to in the current history as published in the Leaf Spring Cobra Registry? It seems to me that it is one of the most important documents that should be in the official SAAC Cobra Registry files as factual proof to back up the publication.

Suffice it to say, yes, and I have read them thoroughly.

[Nedsel]

[quote=ZOERA-SC7XX;1499621: Shelby American probably just scrapped the remains and that was that...
All speculation here, but I think the remains in their entirety were scrapped (less engine & trans) and everyone got on with their business. That left Paul's son hanging on...
CSX 2049 is surely a fake and should not be among the true Cobras, but that's for guys like Ned to determine. These are my thoughts and opinions, and are not to be taken as fact.[/QUOTE]

Apparently, everyone has forgotten about the photos dated 4/67 with Lanse Hasselrig IN THEM (see post #38) as well as the photos submitted by Comp Classics of the dismantled car with just the chassis remains showing (see post #5). Clearly, in spite of allegations to the contrary, Shelby American never cannabilized the car and/ or sold off portions so other people could rebuild it.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Suffice it to say, yes, and I have read them thoroughly.

So what then was in the court documents, I would like a copy of them, how do I go about that? Much has been said that relates back to the CSX2049 chassis, and you are in the opinion that the court was provided evidence to establish a paper title, please make it public as anyone who knows how can get a copy of the trial proceedings and findings.

Help us all out.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

So what then was in the court documents, I would like a copy of them, how do I go about that? Much has been said that relates back to the CSX2049 chassis, and you are in the opinion that the court was provided evidence to establish a paper title, please make it public as anyone who knows how can get a copy of the trial proceedings and findings.

Help us all out.

I do not believe it is up to me to release court documents relating to someone else's car. If they want to do so, fine.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I do not believe it is up to me to release court documents relating to someone else's car. If they want to do so, fine.

Jeez Ned, have him sign an NDA and pledge to return the docs to you if you feel that way.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Jeez Ned, have him sign an NDA and pledge to return the docs to you if you feel that way.

Patrick aren't you a lawyer? If so, perhaps you might be helpful in pointing out how to get court releated documents.

Here in PA, I wanted to get access to documents related to a Will that my children were named in. The executor of the Will was no help, but then I found out that I could use a county website to search for the documents filed for the Will and then pay to download pdf files related to paperwork filed for the Will. I might have been able to pay with a credit card or paypal.

If we knew something like the who, when and where data for the trial, would it be possible for the average person to download court related documents for this case?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Patrick aren't you a lawyer? If so, perhaps you might be helpful in pointing out how to get court releated documents.

Yes, greatest lawyer on the face of the Earth, next to Jamo. The easiest way would be for Ned to just send him the damn stuff.

[Blue66]

Wonder what junk yard (IF it went to one) it was. I finally got off my butt a got my Cobra Registry out. I knew 2 of the owners. That was a long time ago.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Ken,

Are you off your meds, or did you find something buried behind the house that you are looking to claim a CSX number for

Asking for a friend.

Bill S.

Interesting. While walking through my front yard to get the mail and trash cans just a few minutes ago, I saw something sticking up in the dirt. Luckily I always carry a shovel with me in case I encounter something I want to dig up.

And what do you know? After cleaning this off, I wonder if this might be a pedal from an early worm and sector Cobra with some sort of prototype Cobra or Shelby logo on it. I believe that later Cobras pedals came with some other logo most likely designed by Pete Brock.



At this point I think it best that I don't show the other side of the pedal as I would not want to reveal at this time whether or not that side of the pedal has a 4 digit number on it in the 2000-2125 range.

Hmm, I wonder what else might be buried in my yard.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Hmm, I wonder what else might be buried in my yard.

Jimmy Hoffa.

[1ntCobra]

Well I am terrible at keeping secrets. So I will show the back of the pedal.

The pedal with the prototype logo on the front has what appears to be Moon-Eyes and the number 2001 on it. I don't know what the significance of those markings might be.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

No. I am just an "Abnormal CC Member" as usual.

Hmm, does your friend happen to have an Edsel stationwagon?

But seriously, when you had your shop and told "customers" that if they didn't pay all the back monthly storage fees and pick up their abandoned car, you were going to get a mechanics lien, did any of those customers ever pay back monthly storage fees and pick up their car? Or did you just end up getting a mechanics lien and never hear from them again?

In PA I went straight for the title using the Sections 3352(c) and 3353(c) of the Vehicle Code, once the police sent notice (no charge to me) to the last known owner, I can't remember the length of time required, but I could go to the local notary after summary judgement of the abandonment (again, no cost to me) and it was something like $20-$40 for me to apply for the title. Considering the price of metal at that time, I was always guaranteed to turn a profit. My tag shop of preference was not that far from the shop, and was always open late during the week. The loved me as my paperwork was always pre printed, and correct for whatever I was doing. No fuss, review, stamp, make a payment, and the titles showed up in the mail two weeks later. You've been to my old shop, I always had room for another abandoned car

Bill S.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by ZOERA-SC7XX

In all likelihood, Paul bought the Cobra on a handshake and never went back for the title. I myself have bought old race cars the same way (and have been burned).

The Shelby letter about the mechanics lien states that the DMV was contacted. The car was paid off in full at the bank in August 1963. With a bank involved, I am sure there was a title that the bank held onto until the car was paid in full.

At least that's how how banks handle car loans today. The bank is not going to loan you money unless they can hold the title.