Researching any info re: Paul Cunningham, Competition Cobra privateer

[Buzz]

What's the big deal with the edit? I told you to hop to it, get busy and you obeyed. Now get over me and try to move on. Enough petty nonsense. Getting back to the business of the thread.

[Alfa02]

Hey, hey, guys this is starting to get out of hand. As a (Casual Observer) of this post, what have we came up with (Facts)? Michael, (USC_COWBOY) asked for any help we could give him, and I think we've done that, now we're infighting, which only ends up with "Hurt feeling, friendship lost, etc." I know most of you, this is not who we are. We're better than this Sorry if I'm speaking like Jamo, but if I want (Conflict) I'd just look around the world. To me & many others this is our "Happy Place" to talk Cobras. My $.03 Cheers TommyRot.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Alfa02

Hey, hey, guys this is starting to get out of hand. As a (Casual Observer) of this post, what have we came up with (Facts)? Michael, (USC_COWBOY) asked for any help we could give him, and I think we've done that, now we're infighting, which only ends up with "Hurt feeling, friendship lost, etc." I know most of you, this is not who we are. We're better than this Sorry if I'm speaking like Jamo, but if I want (Conflict) I'd just look around the world. To me & many others this is our "Happy Place" to talk Cobras. My $.03 Cheers TommyRot.

I have been thinking that there is a bit of fun teasing going on here among a few members here. But perhaps a casual observer, might not see it that way. Hopefully no casual observer notifies Jamo late at night to such a long thread that might seem to be getting out of hand, because that might end up with a closed thread and people in time out.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by CompClassics

Ned, I have been keeping our conversation between us and mostly confident up until your last post but it appears you want to open this door.

Why is the SAAC Registrar taking it for granted that someone owns a car that has been reported to him as being built with parts belonging to cars other than 2049? Why is it that the SAAC Registrar is not questioning irrefutable testimony that the parts inspected during the court case were not from 2049 and were in fact from something other than a Cobra, to be more precise an AC Bristol. This was sworn testimony by Dave Dralle, someone SAAC acknowledged as an “Expert in all things Cobra”. Why is a SAAC Registrar not questioning a car that has been criticized by an expert in a court case when that Registrar has a copy of the courts findings in front of him and the Registrar has ample opportunity to digest and scrutinize the questionable information in that court case document? Why is it that a specific CSX number used in an “owner” fishing trip (page 377 of the 2019 SAAC Registry) was conducted and parts related to that CSX number were provided as parts for the current 2049 build, these parts with the CSX number (CSX2582) were reported to the SAAC Registrar (by me) as being included in the build by Hasselrig? They were more than provided, they were cut from an existing original door and grafted into the replacement door of the new body chassis that was obtained after the court case. This by the owner of a “respected body shop”. I still have photos of the grafting in of the CSX number and the piece that was cut from the new door to make room for it. Why does it appear that California DMV paperwork has been tampered with from the court case, to the point of removing a state seal, this doesn’t raise red flags? By the way which person in the photos is Lanse? Did Lanse get the trailer with the purchase? Have you ever met Lanse or Wesselink in person? I have.

As far as I am concerned and or at least until the information comes to light that proves one way or the other that UC Cowboy can lay claim to the car is up in the air at this point and I have stated this in my posts previously. As far as I am concerned 2049 met it’s fate in a salvage yard after SAI obtained a mechanics lien. After that 2049 was scattered to the wind until there seemed to be a mad rush by a few individual to lay claim to the title. I will quote a line from the SAAC Registrar’s own statement in the 2019 Registry page 377 entry related to CSX2582, “certain lower life forms that generally takes shape in the question, “ Can I build a Cobra from junk parts and no title?” I guess we don’t have to worry about the “title”, do we?

John, you are apparently stuck on the idea that if someone restores a former race car they legitimately own, they are limited to the use of original parts from the original car. Of course, if those have been stolen, that's a difficult trick. The purpose of the court case in CA was to verify Haselrig's ownership of the CSX 2049 VIN. He presented enough evidence to convince the court he owned the rights to the car. I am not in a position to refute their findings, nor has anyone else stepped forward with a credible claim to ownership of this car. We all know it can't be rebuilt with its original chassis (which is in Europe) or body work (which is destroyed) but he says he has miscellaneous mechanical parts from the car. As the Cobra Registrar, I accept the findings of the court and allow Haselrig to lay claim to the title/ ownership of the 2049 VIN. And just like many other wrecked race cars, 2049 is being rebuilt with a lot of new parts. Yet that does not alter the fact that Haselrig retains the right to identify it as CSX 2049. There is no hiding the fact that it will be a new car. Should it be called something other than the car to which Haselrig holds the legal CA paperwork and title? If so, why?

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

...We all know it can't be rebuilt with its original chassis (which is in Europe)...

when you confirm that David Harts 2049 has the original chassis, why then call it an Air Car?

[1ntCobra]

Ned,

Back at SAAC-10, I remember seeing the wreck of CSX2136 that was found in a junkyard for sale. Prior to the wreck being found in the junkyard, someone else had created another CSX2136 based on a bill of sale from the owner who wrecked it. I suppose that the insurance company got the title for wreck and the prior owner really had no right to see the VIN on a bill of sale.

In the registry (which by the way I did upgrade to the latest Cobra registries last week), the car created from the junkyard wreck is now considered CSX2136 again, while the car created from the bill of sale is now considered CSX2196R.

So how did the car restored from the wreck get its VIN back? Was the wreck's title purchased from the insurance company? Or did something else happen? Perhaps a court case?

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

when you confirm that David Harts 2049 has the original chassis, why then call it an Air Car?

I'm guessing you missed the part where we discussed the theft of the chassis from the facility where Lanse Haselrig stored the car and parts, back in the late '70s. The car was sold out of the USA intentionally to prevent its seizure by the state of CA. But given that it is based upon a purloined chassis, it can never gain legitimacy.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Ned,

Back at SAAC-10, I remember seeing the wreck of CSX2136 that was found in a junkyard for sale. Prior to the wreck being found in the junkyard, someone else had created another CSX2136 based on a bill of sale from the owner who wrecked it. I suppose that the insurance company got the title for wreck and the prior owner really had no right to see the VIN on a bill of sale.

In the registry (which by the way I did upgrade to the latest Cobra registries last week), the car created from the junkyard wreck is now considered CSX2136 again, while the car created from the bill of sale is now considered CSX2196R.

So how did the car restored from the wreck get its VIN back? Was the wreck's title purchased from the insurance company? Or did something else happen? Perhaps a court case?

I understand legal ownership of the car was acquired through the insurance company. And the clone was generously awarded the VIN CSX 2136R. It never should have been.

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I'm guessing you missed the part where we discussed the theft of the chassis from the facility where Lanse Haselrig stored the car and parts, back in the late '70s. The car was sold out of the USA intentionally to prevent its seizure by the state of CA. But given that it is based upon a purloined chassis, it can never gain legitimacy.

it was stolen and stored in a junkyard? that isn’t comprehensible

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

To my thinking, there are too many loose ends that have yet to be tied up. USC Cowboy said in one post he was 75, then later that he was going on 78. So I'm accepting of the idea that he allows a little leeway in the details. He said that his mom was inconsolable when Cunningham was killed, yet someone from Shelby American brought her over some things in a cardboard box from the car and they still had them. Yet all he has shown us is a rusty Ace chassis. Is that what was delivered in a cardboard box? Damn big box. And how did a 3 year old chassis from southern CA get so rusty? Why would anyone at Shelby American have had an Ace chassis lying around anyway? Was the chassis kept by his mother in the storage unit? She was inconsolable, but kept this reminder for over 40 years? And if it was stored instead in CA, it took Michael almost 50 years to start asking questions about it? And why does Comp Classics continue to dispute the possibility that Lanse Hasselrig - who owns a respected body shop in LA and has a few Pebble Beach winning paint jobs to his credit - ever owned the car? He is IN several of the photos from 1967 bringing the car to his storage space, but we should simply dismiss that he ever owned the car? Lots of details here simply don't add up.

Where to start???? From the beginning...

My age, I was born November 6, 1944 making me 77.

The chassis pieces were brought to my mom's house where she and my sister lived. Upon my mom's death on September 13, 2001 I was designated the executor of her estate, I had to go through all her things as an estate inventory, that is when I found the chassis parts in her storage. I asked my sister Lynn about it and she was the one that informed me about the delivery of the parts and who the person said they were. I do not even know if my mom ever saw them or even knew they were in her storage as they were simply in a large cardboard carton. The chassis was cut in half, about 4 foot sections.

Why did SAI have the AC Ace chassis? A good question, perhaps used in the early days of chassis development.

[Nedsel]

At no point did I suggest the chassis bits were stored in a junkyard. The notarized affidavit from Howard Bennett, the owner of an auto restoration shop in Long Beach, stated the chassis of 2049 was stored there by Lanse Haselrig after he towed it in and later disassembled it. Bennett further stated he sold the bent chassis parts to a Max Crenshaw of Signal Hill, CA. These parts were later acquired by Connie Moore. Bennett acknowledged he had no legal rights to them nor the legal ability to sell or transfer them.

[Alfa02]

@1ntCobra, That's exactly why I posted, so Jamo doesn't have to take time out of his busy schedule, to deal with this, and have the post closed. I understand teasing and/or hurt feeling, and I hope it doesn't reach the "Hurt Feeling" part for anyone. That's the only point I was trying to make. I'm the kinda guy you bring to a gun fight, and both people go home unharmed that night Cheers TommyRot.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Where to start???? From the beginning...

My age, I was born November 6, 1944 making me 77.

The chassis pieces were brought to my mom's house where she and my sister lived. Upon my mom's death on September 13, 2001 I was designated the executor of her estate, I had to go through all her things as an estate inventory, that is when I found the chassis parts in her storage. I asked my sister Lynn about it and she was the one that informed me about the delivery of the parts and who the person said they were. I do not even know if my mom ever saw them or even knew they were in her storage as they were simply in a large cardboard carton. The chassis was cut in half, about 4 foot sections.

Why did SAI have the AC Ace chassis? A good question, perhaps used in the early days of chassis development.

Or it wasn't someone from Shelby American. Again, a 40 year second hand memory with nothing to document it. As Perry would say, Hearsay.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Or it wasn't someone from Shelby American. Again, a 40 year second hand memory with nothing to document it. As Perry would say, Hearsay.

If not SAI, then who and more importantly why?

The Paul Cunningham story begins at Cotati in July 1963, prior to that Abidin per all the race related documentation and photos.

In my opinion, the CSX2049 Cobra transferred ownership just prior to Cotati.

[1ntCobra]

How about another wild speculation that would fit into the paper work:

Paul pays Ann for the car around August 1963.

After Ann pays off the car at the bank with the proceeds from the sale, she gets the title from the bank. Perhaps the bank mails Ann the title a few days later after she pays off the loan.

Ann tries to give the title to Paul, but has a tough time getting a hold of him. Or maybe she eventually gets the title to Paul. When I have sold bought or sold a car in PA, I go to a tags place and the buyer and seller both sign the title with a notary as a witness and the title is sent to the DMV. Unless the signed title is sent into the state of California, they will not have a record that Paul is the new owner. So Paul may not be in a hurry or may not be concerned about getting the title paperwork done because the car is not going to be driven on the street. Also he is not worried about getting the car registered to drive on the street. If he is a busy person and he needs to meet Ann at a notary to sign over the title and the 2 of them just never get around to signing over the title, then as far as California is concerned Ann is still the title holder.

The car is wrecked in November of 1963 and goes to SAI to investigate.

Near the end of the 1963 year, Ann receives the application to renew the registration for CSX2049 for 1964 because California has no idea she sold the car. She does not send in the registration renewal application, but also for some reason does not throw it out. She may or may not still have the title in hand, the Cunningham family may have the title in their possession, but it has not been signed, notarized and sent to California.

The SAI comptroller wants to get rid of the wreck for months. He contacts the DMV on or before April 1964. The DMV reports that the title is still in Ann's name and she paid it off in August of 1963. SAI keeps bugging Ann to come back and pick up the wreck. Ann says she sold the car to Paul, but SAI wants to dot their i's and cross their t's and gets a lawyer to proceed with a mechanics lien so they can dispose of it since Ann does not want the wreck of the car she sold to Paul.

Perhaps the mechanics lien goes through and the car goes to the junkyard. Hasselrig finds out about the car in the junkyard and buys it from the junkyard. But then there is no need to get paperwork from Ann because the mechanics lien would have moved the title to SAI and then to the junkyard. Or maybe he gets the car from the junkyard without a title, figures out Ann was the prior owner, contacts her and she goes through her paperwork and finds that she still has the application to renew the registration for 1964 and sells that piece of paper to Hasselrig which he somehow uses to get a title.

Or maybe after SAI bugs Ann enough about picking up the wreck, she finally picks it up with the intention of giving it to the Cunningham family. But Paul's widow is distraught and does not want to accept the wreck from Ann. After a while Ann can't even figure out how to contact the Cunningham family because they moved out of the state. At some point Hasselrig hears about the wreck in Ann's possession in her yard or garage. He gets a hold of Ann who has no idea of how to contact the Cunningham family anymore, but she still is the title holder per the DMV records. If the unsigned title was in the possession of the Cunningham family, but was lost during the move, Ann could probably get a duplicate title from the DMV. And for whatever reason, she never did throw out the 1964 registation renewal application, she can give that to Hasselrig too. So maybe in 1967 after getting tired of the wreck sitting in her yard or garage, and having no idea how to get a hold of the Cunningham family, Ann the title holder on record with the DMV, sells the wreck to Hasselrig.

Anyway, that could explain why a search of the DMV records would show Ann as the first owner and Hasselrig as the second owner. Because there was no DMV record of Paul being the title holder or of Paul registering the car.

And for whatever reason, Ann kept the registration renewal application for 1964. Considering that he son orignally had it as a street car, it would make sense to have a registration with a license plate number on it.

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

At no point did I suggest the chassis bits were stored in a junkyard. The notarized affidavit from Howard Bennett, the owner of an auto restoration shop in Long Beach, stated the chassis of 2049 was stored there by Lanse Haselrig after he towed it in and later disassembled it. Bennett further stated he sold the bent chassis parts to a Max Crenshaw of Signal Hill, CA. These parts were later acquired by Connie Moore. Bennett acknowledged he had no legal rights to them nor the legal ability to sell or transfer them.

so Bennett stole the chassis from Hasselrig?

[Nedsel]

Yes. He maintained all he saw were bent tubes that looked essentially worthless. Figured they were being discarded...so he sold them.

[peterpjb]

interesting, we need some international lawyers chiming in…

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I'm guessing you missed the part where we discussed the theft of the chassis from the facility where Lanse Haselrig stored the car and parts, back in the late '70s. The car was sold out of the USA intentionally to prevent its seizure by the state of CA. But given that it is based upon a purloined chassis, it can never gain legitimacy.

that implies that Curt Voigt already knew the chassis was stolen when he sold 2049 to David Hart in 2007?

[Nedsel]

Not necessarily. We are aware that Fran Kress was aware a lawsuit was going on to declare his title to 2049 invalid. Curt Vogt acted as an agent on his behalf but we do not know if he was advised of the ongoing legal wranglings.