Researching any info re: Paul Cunningham, Competition Cobra privateer

[Mr Barnwood]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Ah, no. It is because you truly have no idea what you are talking about. I have been collecting data on these cars for roughly 50 years, and the fact that the last leaf-spring Registry was over 400 pages long and the coil-spring one was over 250 suggests we have a huge load of details. When someone comes along and says that we are not being transparent and are withholding information for some unknown reason, it goes without saying...you don't know what you are talking about. Ego has nothing at all to do with it.

Bravo Ned! I think most of us see zero ego in you.

[USC_COWBOY]

Ned,

While you are at it may I have a copy of the Bill of Sale from the SAI sale of CSX2049 to Ann Abidin that has been published and spoken highly of to me and others on the forum?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Ned,

While you are at it may I have a copy of the Bill of Sale from the SAI sale of CSX2049 to Ann Abidin that has been published and spoken highly of to me and others on the forum?

I suspect the documents you are informally requesting "for your records", would need the permission of not only the SAAC board, registrar, but the current "owner of record" permission to divulge. As stated by Ned before, there are plenty of documents in the files that are not made public for privacy, along with keeping such items behind the scenes so others (not you per se) may not have such items available for nefarious purposes.

Bill S.

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I suspect the documents you are informally requesting "for your records", would need the permission of not only the SAAC board, registrar, but the current "owner of record" permission to divulge. As stated by Ned before, there are plenty of documents in the files that are not made public for privacy, along with keeping such items behind the scenes so others (not you per se) may not have such items available for nefarious purposes.

Bill S.

As a Member I would like to know what (official) function do you have in the SAAC ?

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Ned Scudder,

I do appreciate all the work you do in keeping the histories and supporting documentation on our beloved Cobra’s. I have been reading the Leaf Spring Cobra Registry and it definitely qualifies as a “Tome”, kudos to you and the staff.

I would like to point out a couple of possible mistakes in the CSX2049 history as presented:

In the race history of the car, it states that in the Pomona Race dated 7/13-24/1963 Ted Roberts drove #25; I have examined the Race program and it does not show Ted Roberts nor car #25, in fact, it only shows Corvettes and a Ferrari in the class race, not one Cobra.

In the race history of the car, it states that in the Times GP GT 1 hour Race, dated 10/13/1963 the car was sponsored by “Muth Ford”; not so, it was sponsored by “Powerine Fuel”. Driver and entrant was Paul Cunningham.

In the race history of the car, it states that in the Laguna Seca Race, dated 10/19/1963 the car was sponsored by “Muth Ford”; not so, it was sponsored by “Powerine Fuel”. Driver and entrant was Paul Cunningham.

In the race history of the car, it states that in the Willow Springs Race, dated 11/16/1963 the car was entered by “Powerine Oil”; not so, it was sponsored by “Powerine Oil”. Driver and entrant was Paul Cunningham.

Also noted was that Albert Abidin sent the Cobra CSX2049 back to Shelby American for extensive upgrades converting it from Street to Full competition status. Listed upgrades were:

Race spec engine, custom fabricated headers, side exit exhausts, engine oil cooler, larger front brake calipers, forward braced roll bar, F/R pin drive wheel hubs, aviation spec hardware for the suspension, etc., rear wheel arch flares, Halibrand “kidney bean” magnesium racing wheels, 15”x6” front and 15”x7” rear Goodyear Blue Streak racing tires, and replace the AC/Shelby emblem with the flat hooded snake emblem.

This is a sizeable work order. May I have a copy of the factory work order, invoicing and costs related to these factory competition modifications?

On 4/13/1964, Ken Grindley wrote a letter to Phil Curry wherein they decided to obtain a “mechanics lien” on the wrecked car, there would have been application paperwork necessary to obtain a “mechanics lien”, and there would have been corresponding correspondence to notify the owner that they were going to be subject to a “mechanics lien”. May I have a copy of the letter, the application paperwork and the correspondence to the owner?

Like yourself, I believe in keeping as complete a record as possible and would like to leave a history on my end that is complete and relevant.

Thank you again for securing and safe-keeping such an extensive history of our beloved Cobras.

Hi, Michael - I hope you will allow me to tackle your questions roughly in order.

For the various races you mention, I took the car numbers and race results from whichever copy of the fun old publication "Competition Press," later called "Autoweek," they would have been in. My thinking is that a race program would have been submitted to the printers a few days ahead of any race, and perhaps not all the entries that eventually showed up were listed. Did they get it right? We will likely never know at this point. Sadly, I threw out all my old copies of the paper in a move many years ago.

Regarding the Times GP where Muth Ford was shown as a sponsor instead of Powerine Fuel: is is possible that may have been more than one sponsor, and they listed one over another? I can't say if the data is correct or incorrect at this point, but it is whatever was shown in the race summary after the event. Ditto for the next event you mention, where I suspect you want to say Powerine Fuel vs. Powerine Oil. In spite of which sponsor may have been listed, I'm not sure it carries too much relevance given the larger picture of where things are today.

Regarding the modifications said to have been made to 2049 at Shelby American, we have no paperwork on these. What was listed was how the car was prepared based on photographs taken at the events as well as how the car was equipped when it was crashed. It is my understanding that Al or Ann Abiden explained to Lanse Hasselrig when they were discussing his purchase of the wrecked car that the modifications had been performed at Shelby American. I would very much like to have a copy of that invoice, as it would likely show the owner as the party to be billed for the work, but it was not in the files we recovered.

I am appending a copy of the letter in the files from Ken Grindley, the Shelby American controller, to Phil Curry regarding a mechanic's lien. I have no idea who Curry is nor why the letter was directed to him. And it is unfortunate that the original letter with the Shelby American logo was sent out and all that was in the files is a copy, but it's better than nothing. Too bad that once again, there is no mention of an owner.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Ned,

While you are at it may I have a copy of the Bill of Sale from the SAI sale of CSX2049 to Ann Abidin that has been published and spoken highly of to me and others on the forum?

Sorry, do not have a Bill of Sale. But I do have a 1964 CA registration document showing Ann Abiden as the legal owner, as well as another CA document from 4/67 - the same date as on the photos from Lanse Haselrig that show the wrecked 2049 as well as Lanse himself - showing he had applied for a registration document even though the legal owner is still shown as Ann Abiden, as Lanse had yet to pay off the full balance.

I submit these willingly as I have no doubts as to their legitimacy.

[CompClassics]

Deleted

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

As a Member I would like to know what (official) function do you have in the SAAC ?

No secret there, thought everyone knew, I am their current AdMaster and classified moderator on the saacforum, that is, until they find another SAAC member honest enough to take the position over from me. I have no other connection to SAAC other than that, I am not a board member, nor hold any other position, nor connections to the organization, other than my paid membership since 1981.


Bill S.

[Nedsel]

Memo to Comp Classics: You appear to be going out of your way to diminish the validity of a car that, last I knew, you were restoring. Then I noted a fascinating comment that said something along the lines of, "I knew if I continued working on this project I would be perjuring myself." I'm not sure how that would occur, but I ask you bluntly: Are you a neutral party in this discussion, or might you have an axe to grind here?

[CompClassics]

Deleted

[CompClassics]

Deleted

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Hi, Michael - I hope you will allow me to tackle your questions roughly in order.

For the various races you mention, I took the car numbers and race results from whichever copy of the fun old publication "Competition Press," later called "Autoweek," they would have been in. My thinking is that a race program would have been submitted to the printers a few days ahead of any race, and perhaps not all the entries that eventually showed up were listed. Did they get it right? We will likely never know at this point. Sadly, I threw out all my old copies of the paper in a move many years ago.

Regarding the Times GP where Muth Ford was shown as a sponsor instead of Powerine Fuel: is is possible that may have been more than one sponsor, and they listed one over another? I can't say if the data is correct or incorrect at this point, but it is whatever was shown in the race summary after the event. Ditto for the next event you mention, where I suspect you want to say Powerine Fuel vs. Powerine Oil. In spite of which sponsor may have been listed, I'm not sure it carries too much relevance given the larger picture of where things are today.

Regarding the modifications said to have been made to 2049 at Shelby American, we have no paperwork on these. What was listed was how the car was prepared based on photographs taken at the events as well as how the car was equipped when it was crashed. It is my understanding that Al or Ann Abiden explained to Lanse Hasselrig when they were discussing his purchase of the wrecked car that the modifications had been performed at Shelby American. I would very much like to have a copy of that invoice, as it would likely show the owner as the party to be billed for the work, but it was not in the files we recovered.

I am appending a copy of the letter in the files from Ken Grindley, the Shelby American controller, to Phil Curry regarding a mechanic's lien. I have no idea who Curry is nor why the letter was directed to him. And it is unfortunate that the original letter with the Shelby American logo was sent out and all that was in the files is a copy, but it's better than nothing. Too bad that once again, there is no mention of an owner.

Ned,

I have digital copies of the Competition Press Volumes 1 through 20 if you are interested.

[1ntCobra]

Here are just some thoughts and speculations:

1) Why would Shelby American want a mechanics lien against a wrecked car? Wouldn't a mechanics lien normally be for a car that a shop had done work on, but failed to collect payment on? It seems unlikely they did any work that they wanted to charge back to the owner of a wreck, right? Could it be the car was sitting around the shop from November of 1963 through April of 1964 and Shelby American wanted to simply get the car out of the shop because it was taking up space for months and the owner (whoever that was) simply did not bother to come to pick up the wreck? Unlike a wrecked Shelby team car that Shelby American owned and could simply cut up and throw in the dumpster, I am guessing that a car belonging to someone else would require a lien to get the car's title so that they could dispose of the car.

2) The owner of the car as of April 4, 1964 had paid it off in August of 1963.

2) We don't know whether Shelby American ever got the mechanics lien.

3) The wreck was intact in pictures from 1967, so obviously Shelby did not cut up the wreck and throw it in their dumpster to get rid of it.

4) If Shelby American never got the lien, is it possible that they eventually got a hold of the owner (whover the owner was) to pick up the car?

5) If Shelby American eventually got the lien and considering the wreck still existed, were they trying to sell the wreck to someone? Or sell it to a junk yard?

6) Who is Phil Curry? Maybe he could have been part of a car tags business involved in getting a title to the car in the case the lien came through? Maybe he was interested in buying the wreck for parts if the lien came though?

7) What is at Phil Curry's address? It does not look like a residence. You can lease the office building at that address now. https://www.loopnet.com/property/514...37-5544014010/

8) The 1964 and 1967 registrations show a license number (which I assume is a license plate number): JJB 499

9) Well in this historical picture, there is no license plate.



10) Even if the car had a license plate, maybe it would be removed from the car to save weight during racing.

11) The registrations from 1964 and 1967 just indicate the year that the car was sold, 1963. Presumably that is the year that the car was first sold.

12) Let's say that you are Ann Abidin and you purchased the car in 1963, and the car was wrecked in 1963 and you have a valid title for the car you purchased in 1963. Why would Ann pay to register the car wreck in 1964? It is not like she was planning on driving it, right? Why register the wreck in 1964, if you have the 1963 title showing you paid for it in full in August of 1963? Couldn't you just sell the car with the 1963 title and 1963 registration without renewing the registration for 1964?

13) In my experience in Pennsylvania (which is not the same as 1964 California), my family was able to sell my aunt's old Mustang that had been parked in the garage and last registered in 1981 a few years ago using the title from the 1960s. We did not have to get a current year registration to sell the car.

14) So getting back to Ann Abidin getting a registration in 1964 for a car wrecked in 1963, why do that? Wild speculation here: Is it possible that Ann got her first title and registration for CSX2049 in 1964, after she purchased the wreck from Shelby American after Shelby American finally got a mechanics lien on the car? Mundane speculation here: Ann was the owner of the car and paid it off in 1963; Shelby American never got the mechanics lien; Shelby American eventually got a hold of Ann, and she eventually picked up the wreck from Shelby American; for some unknow reason she registered the undrivable wreck in 1964, but apparently wised up on wasting money on unnecessary registration fees and did not bother to register it again in 1965, 1966 or 1967.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Here are just some thoughts and speculations:

1) Why would Shelby American want a mechanics lien against a wrecked car? Wouldn't a mechanics lien normally be for a car that a shop had done work on, but failed to collect payment on? It seems unlikely they did any work that they wanted to charge back to the owner of a wreck, right? Could it be the car was sitting around the shop from November of 1963 through April of 1964 and Shelby American wanted to simply get the car out of the shop because it was taking up space for months and the owner (whoever that was) simply did not bother to come to pick up the wreck? Unlike a wrecked Shelby team car that Shelby American owned and could simply cut up and throw in the dumpster, I am guessing that a car belonging to someone else would require a lien to get the car's title so that they could dispose of the car.

2) The owner of the car as of April 4, 1964 had paid it off in August of 1963.

2) We don't know whether Shelby American ever got the mechanics lien.

3) The wreck was intact in pictures from 1967, so obviously Shelby did not cut up the wreck and throw it in their dumpster to get rid of it.

4) If Shelby American never got the lien, is it possible that they eventually got a hold of the owner (whover the owner was) to pick up the car?

5) If Shelby American eventually got the lien and considering the wreck still existed, were they trying to sell the wreck to someone? Or sell it to a junk yard?

6) Who is Phil Curry? Maybe he could have been part of a car tags business involved in getting a title to the car in the case the lien came through? Maybe he was interested in buying the wreck for parts if the lien came though?

7) What is at Phil Curry's address? It does not look like a residence. You can lease the office building at that address now. https://www.loopnet.com/property/514...37-5544014010/

8) The 1964 and 1967 registrations show a license number (which I assume is a license plate number): JJB 499

9) Well in this historical picture, there is no license plate.



10) Even if the car had a license plate, maybe it would be removed from the car to save weight during racing.

11) The registrations from 1964 and 1967 just indicate the year that the car was sold, 1963. Presumably that is the year that the car was first sold.

12) Let's say that you are Ann Abidin and you purchased the car in 1963, and the car was wrecked in 1963 and you have a valid title for the car you purchased in 1963. Why would Ann pay to register the car wreck in 1964? It is not like she was planning on driving it, right? Why register the wreck in 1964, if you have the 1963 title showing you paid for it in full in August of 1963? Couldn't you just sell the car with the 1963 title and 1963 registration without renewing the registration for 1964?

13) In my experience in Pennsylvania (which is not the same as 1964 California), my family was able to sell my aunt's old Mustang that had been parked in the garage and last registered in 1981 a few years ago using the title from the 1960s. We did not have to get a current year registration to sell the car.

14) So getting back to Ann Abidin getting a registration in 1964 for a car wrecked in 1963, why do that? Wild speculation here: Is it possible that Ann got her first title and registration for CSX2049 in 1964, after she purchased the wreck from Shelby American after Shelby American finally got a mechanics lien on the car? Mundane speculation here: Ann was the owner of the car and paid it off in 1963; Shelby American never got the mechanics lien; Shelby American eventually got a hold of Ann, and she eventually picked up the wreck from Shelby American; for some unknow reason she registered the undrivable wreck in 1964, but apparently wised up on wasting money on unnecessary registration fees and did not bother to register it again in 1965, 1966 or 1967.

Oh, wait. I think I misunderstood something important here!

I don't think that is a 1964 registration for CSX2049. It is the application to get a 1964 registration that was never sent into the state because, why bother, the car is wrecked. In that case, having the application to renew the registration for 1964 would imply that Ann owned the car in 1963.

[USC_COWBOY]

Thought a remembrance of Paul Cunningham would be of interest. Fred Yeakel is one of the brothers that owned several car dealerships in Southern California.

Fred Yeakel Remembers Paul Cunningham:
"I was very interested in the write-up on Paul Cunningham. I bought my first Corvette at the racetrack at Santa Barbara on Memorial Day weekend 1963. I had been watching sports car races since the first LA Times Grand Prix in 1958.
When I went to Riverside Raceway for my first CalClub driver’s school, I was assigned to the group Paul Cunningham was instructing. I was sure that I knew everything there was to know! I had owned an Austin Healey 100-4 and a Alfa Romeo Gullia previously. I had watched races all over Southern California for 5 years as well as working corners for CalClub. This did not include my extensive "Mulholland Drive" experience.
The first session of the school, we all just followed the lead car around as Paul showed everyone the correct line. The next session we were all allowed out on the track, while Paul drove one student’s car with the student in the passenger's seat. We would be called into the pits, he would then get into another student's car for a few laps of instruction.
At this point I still thought I was hot stuff. The first lap I thought that Paul was pretty quick. I did not realize that he was only checking the car out. The second lap when we went down that long back stretch (this was before they added the dog leg) I was positive that we would not be able to get slowed down enough to make Turn 9. We were going to hit that dirt backed Armco. WE WERE GOING TO DIE!!
Well, we made it without a problem. Paul taught me the difference between the spectator's and driver's view
Paul was a great instructor and helped this fledgling racer through driver's schools at both Riverside and San Luis Obispo. I was in the same A & B production race at Willow Springs that claimed his life. It was the last race of the day and as you would come around Turn 9 the sun was directly in your eyes. I was coming out of Turn 8, on I believe lap 1, when all of a sudden there was this huge cloud of dust at Turn 9. We all drove through Turn 9 not being able to see anything. I was very sad when told what had happened.
I missed Paul Cunningham then and I still miss him today, even though I never got to know him that well."
Fred Yeakel

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Oh, wait. I think I misunderstood something important here!

I don't think that is a 1964 registration for CSX2049. It is the application to get a 1964 registration that was never sent into the state because, why bother, the car is wrecked. In that case, having the application to renew the registration for 1964 would imply that Ann owned the car in 1963.

Thinking about this again... $88.00 in 1964 dollars sounds rather expensive for a vehicle registration renewal application fee. Maybe if the registration for a new vehicle purchase just for the first year of registration (as opposed to an annual renewal fee) includes some sort of fee based on a percentage of the purchase price of the vehicle in California back in 1964, that might make me think that the high fee could be indicative that Ann initially purchased the vehicle in 1964 and just never bothered to send in the 1964 registation application because she never planned on driving the wreck. Considering that Lanse's fee was $2.00 for 1967 if that was 1/44th of the fee that Ann paid in 1964, that might make sense of the rather expensive initial registration fee that Ann paid.

Does anyone know how registration fees worked in California back in the 1960s?

Still if the car was first titled in 1964 (and not bothered to be registered) by Ann, wouldn't the initial registation fee be much more reasonable for a wrecked Cobra than $88.00. Keep in mind that $88.00 in 1964 dollars sounds expensive.

Also it seems a bit strange that Lanse would pay a registration fee in 1967 for a wrecked car that cannot be driven. It seems like Lanse would just need to eventually get the car's title in his name and never bother to register it.

[CompClassics]

Deleted

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by CompClassics

CSX2049 was initially bought as an well optioned street car in 1963, it was turned into a race car some time thereafter.

Sure, the car was initially purchased in 1963 and paid for in full in August of 1963. It was converted to a race car prior to the crash in November 1963. And it seems that the owner of the car in April 1964 was still the person that paid off the bank loan in August of 1963 based on the letter about the mechanics lien shared by Ned.

We do not know who owned the car paid in full in August of 1963 based on what Ned has shown us.

There is what appears to be an application to register CSX 2049 for 1964 that was not sent into the state (as opposed to a 1964 registration). After all why bother to file the 1964 registration for a car wrecked in 1963.

Here are 2 possibilities that could explain Ann having a 1964 application to register CSX 2049 that she did not bother to send into California:

1) Ann could have been the owner of the car back in August 1963. She still had the application to register the car for 1964, but did not send in the application for the wrecked car because it was no longer drivable.

2) Ann purchased the wrecked car from Shelby American sometime after April 1964 if Shelby American eventually got the mechanics lien. She would have gotten a title for the car in 1964 when she first purchased the car as a wreck. She would also also have gotten the application to register the car in 1964, but would not have bothered to send in the registration application because she would never drive the car.

Possiblity number 2 allows for someone other than Ann to have owned the car when Paul Cunningham crashed it. And that owner could have been Paul Cunningham, but not necessarily.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Sure, the car was initially purchased in 1963 and paid for in full in August of 1963. It was converted to a race car prior to the crash in November 1963. And it seems that the owner of the car in April 1964 was still the person that paid off the bank loan in August of 1963 based on the letter about the mechanics lien shared by Ned.

We do not know who owned the car paid in full in August of 1963 based on what Ned has shown us.

There is what appears to be an application to register CSX 2049 for 1964 that was not sent into the state (as opposed to a 1964 registration). After all why bother to file the 1964 registration for a car wrecked in 1963.

Here are 2 possibilities that could explain Ann having a 1964 application to register CSX 2049 that she did not bother to send into California:

1) Ann could have been the owner of the car back in August 1963. She still had the application to register the car for 1964, but did not send in the application for the wrecked car because it was no longer drivable.

2) Ann purchased the wrecked car from Shelby American sometime after April 1964 if Shelby American eventually got the mechanics lien. She would have gotten a title for the car in 1964 when she first purchased the car as a wreck. She would also also have gotten the application to register the car in 1964, but would not have bothered to send in the registration application because she would never drive the car.

Possiblity number 2 allows for someone other than Ann to have owned the car when Paul Cunningham crashed it. And that owner could have been Paul Cunningham, but not necessarily.

This is pretty much what I was thinking after trying to make sense of the paper trail. Are there no records at all of the original purchase in 1963?

I also wonder though, why on Earth would Ann Abidin buy a beyond-repair wrecked race Cobra in 1964 when a heap like that would've been of little value to anyone back then. Cobras were still production cars and not highly valued collector items.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Buzz

This is pretty much what I was thinking after trying to make sense of the paper trail. Are there no records at all of the original purchase in 1963?

I also wonder though, why on Earth would Ann Abidin buy a beyond-repair wrecked race Cobra in 1964 when a heap like that would've been of little value to anyone back then. Cobras were still production cars and not highly valued collector items.

I think Ned said that Ann sold the wreck to Lanse for $400. The wreck was probably worth that amount. You have magnesium wheels, engine, transmission, etc.

In the scenario that Ann bought the wreck from Shelby American after they got a mechanics lien, she presumably would have gotten it for less than $400 with the thought of reselling it to make some money. But to resell it to someone with a personal loan that took around 3 years to collect sounds odd.

Back to wild, crazy, unprovable speculation:
Hmm, what if Lanse had heard about the wreck being for sale and wanted to buy it. He went to his Dad and said "Can you loan me $400 to buy this cool wrecked racecar?". Dad says, "No". Lanse tries again asking his mom, who also says no. Lanse asks various other friends and relatives to help him buy the wreck, who all say no to him, until he asks his eccentric aunt Ann, who says "OK, I will buy the car for you, and you can pay me back $12 a month for 3 years. We will keep track of your payments on little scraps of paper".

Less likely scenario:
Ann owns the wreck, either as the owner from August 1963 or purchased it from Shelby American after a mechanics lien. She tries to sell the wreck for scrap or parts and finds absolutely nobody who wants the wreck except for some guy named Lanse, who offers to buy it from her for $400 over a reasonably short period of time. Ann says OK, and the reasonably short period of time to pay her turns into 3 years and Ann gets very frustrated that that she agreed to sell Lanse the wreck as a personal loan.