I am a model builder.

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

Hi,

I think I used to be a member here, but can't find my original self.
I just emailed Brent with the questions I am going to ask in this post. For some reason (old age!) I decided to email him, rather than post on the forum. Once again, Brent, sorry for being so presumptious.

I am a semi-professional (which means I can't make a living at it! model builder.
I am going to build a large scale (1/8th; 1.5"= 1'; approx 19" long) display model of a 427 S/C.

I have quite alot of reference material, but I still need drawings, diagrams, photos, and general info.

For instance, I need the part #, or photos, or both, of the carb used on the S/Cs.

If any of this info is already posted, I would like a little guidance in locating it.

I will be documenting this completely scratch built (no Cobra kits or parts have ever been made in this scale) model, and would be more than happy to post updates on my progress, or lack thereof.

I did some basic CAD Drawings of the engine block, based on several smaller scale models, and once I have that built, I will tackle the heads, with all their intricate and fascinating shapes.

I have not posted anything on this build on my website yet, but if you have the time, you can see some of my other work at www.mikehenley.com

I am looking forward to being involved in a club meant for the world's best auotmobiles!

Thanks,

Mike

[Woodz428]

I would check the NVSAAC site www.nvsaac.com they have a load of info like you request.

[Ozgur_Tan]

G'day Mike

conley has got 1/4 scale cobra with scale v8, will be retired because of new '34 ford
there was 1/10 scale franklin-mint model of 427 (but retired now) and kyosho is going to release 1/10 die-cast in near future.
i've got 1/8 scale kyosho r/c cobra 427 (retired now) (as part of my appox. 150 pcs. model cobra collection) but details not suitable for static display.

i'm also working on large scale cobra model, 289ussrc/fia 1:1 scale will be dynamic model .
take a look my work, i'm using 3d laser scanning in parallel to normal 3d modelling.
i'm going to start manufacturing of bodyshell, but slabside or fia ?

regards
ozgur

[427mudflap]

Why don't you build a real one 1/1 scale, then you can drive it.
It's alot of work to build scale models.

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

Ozgur,
Thanks for replying.
Conley's model is nice, but I don't care for their rendition of the body shape.
I have seen picutres of a 1/!2th scale Kyosho Model that looks like a 1:1 car.
I have not seen the Franklin Mint's model.
Does your R/C car's body have good proportions?
I envy your large collection.
I would love to have access to 3d scanning. Scans of a 427 S/C would sure make my project a lot easier.
I imagine your 1:1 "model" will be anything BUT static!
I looked at the thread. Awesome!

Thanks again,

Mike

Originally Posted by Ozgur_Tan

G'day Mike

conley has got 1/4 scale cobra with scale v8, will be retired because of new '34 ford
there was 1/10 scale franklin-mint model of 427 (but retired now) and kyosho is going to release 1/10 die-cast in near future.
i've got 1/8 scale kyosho r/c cobra 427 (retired now) (as part of my appox. 150 pcs. model cobra collection) but details not suitable for static display.

i'm also working on large scale cobra model, 289ussrc/fia 1:1 scale will be dynamic model .
take a look my work, i'm using 3d laser scanning in parallel to normal 3d modelling.
i'm going to start manufacturing of bodyshell, but slabside or fia ?

regards
ozgur

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

Mudflap,

If I had the means to build a 1:1 car, I would be out driving its wheels off, right now. I would still have a good model of it to look at when I wasn't driving. I am building this model for several reasons. 1. I love Cobras, real, model, or imaginary. 2. I want this model to be my masterpiece, to establish me as a quality model maker. I hope this leads to commissions to build models for 1:1 owners. 3. If I decide there is a market for it, I will produce a limited number of kits, for sale.
All of this is aimed at someday being able to build and own a 1:1 Cobra.

You are SO right about the work involved in a completely scratchbuilt model. In a way, it is harder than doing a 1:1 car. In the real world, you usually don't have to scratchbuild your engine block, tranny, wheels, etc.
And, finally, people who have never built a high quality model have no idea of the work involved. I once saw a fantastic wooden ship model for sale, for $5,000. Big bucks, but the builder had 1,000 hours in it. So, at the bottom line, he made less than minimum wage, not to mention materials, etc.

Thanks again for responding,

Mike

Originally Posted by 427mudflap

Why don't you build a real one 1/1 scale, then you can drive it.
It's alot of work to build scale models.

[Power Surge]

Carb or carbs? S/Cs were 2x4s. Comp cars were 1x4s, for the most part.

And yes, I know my car is an S/C with a 1x4, but I just like the 1x4 better .

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

Sal,
Thanks for replying.
I have the December, 1993 issue of "Classic Auto Restorer." In an article on the S/C, it says," (the 427 S/C model) sported Halibrand magnesium knock-off wheels, a larger fuel tank, a modified dashboard, a differential oil cooler, and no glove box or bumpers." In the specs box, it says "Carburetor.....Holley four barrel" The article also says S/C stands for "Semi-Competition" or "Street-Competition" I am not sure which is correct.
I have a 1/24th scale Monogram model, which they called the 427 S/C, and it has a 1x4 and a cold air box. From my research, I thought this was the most accurate model.
My information also indicates the street versions came with under car exhaust, bumpers, no roll-over bar, and a 427 or 428 with 2x4.
I know some of the cars were customized by the factory, and I guess that might be part of the confusion.
Another point of debate is what FE really stands for. I have seen "Ford Edsel" " Ford Engine" and several more I can't remember.

Thanks again,

Mike

Originally Posted by Power Surge

Carb or carbs? S/Cs were 2x4s. Comp cars were 1x4s, for the most part.

And yes, I know my car is an S/C with a 1x4, but I just like the 1x4 better .

[Ozgur_Tan]

r/c kyosho has got little off shape, but i can offer you a 3d 427 body shell model in dxf format. decade ago when i built my first cobra i made a comparison it's very good. if you would like get i can sent to your user name since it's your email also
regards
ozgur from other side of the pond @ istanbul

Originally Posted by mrhenley@yahoo.com

Ozgur,
Thanks for replying.
Conley's model is nice, but I don't care for their rendition of the body shape.
I have seen picutres of a 1/!2th scale Kyosho Model that looks like a 1:1 car.
I have not seen the Franklin Mint's model.
Does your R/C car's body have good proportions?
I envy your large collection.
I would love to have access to 3d scanning. Scans of a 427 S/C would sure make my project a lot easier.
I imagine your 1:1 "model" will be anything BUT static!
I looked at the thread. Awesome!

Thanks again,

Mike

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

Yes, I would love to have this drawing. Please send it to: mrhenley@yahoo.com
Thanks,
Mike

[Ozgur_Tan]

i've just sent 3d dxf body shell to your email
please inform me if you can't import, i can send as 3ds, odj etc.
take a look to pictures of my scale cobra models
http://picasaweb.google.com/ozgur.ta...ey=MHSwFJ5XwMc
regards
ozgur

[chuckbrandt]

Originally Posted by mrhenley@yahoo.com

Hi,

I did some basic CAD Drawings of the engine block, based on several smaller scale models, and once I have that built, I will tackle the heads, with all their intricate and fascinating shapes.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike,
I have a set of blueprints for the FE engine. Or you should find a real engine. Smaller scale models rarely (that I've seen) get the engine even close, most look like small block chevy's. I'm sure someone around tulsa has an engine on a stand you can measure.

Chuck

[TButtrick]

My brother is a "semi-professional" everything. He can't make money doing anything. He's one hell of a model builder. 1/12 427SC is in process.

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

Ozgur,
Thank you very, very much! I have TurboCadPro v11. and I am still learning, slowly, how to use it. My DSL is down, so I am on my laptop, on dial-up.
I was able to unzip, and load the file into TurboCad. It shows all the views, and renders just fine. My next step is to try to figure out how to have it generate cross sections to build a buck for the 1/8th scale body.
There is also a chance I can have a new friend produce a master on a CNC machine, from the file.
(forgive me if I am repeating myself) I could not get the file to load into AutoCad r 14, but I think TurboCad will do what I need. I will work with your greatly appreciated gift, and see how I do.

I looked closely at the website where your models are. As a model builder of over 50 years experience, I know quality work when I see it. Your models are first rate, and I will keep checking the site to see more.

I am not sure if I gave you my website address, but it is http://www.mikehenley.com
If you get a few spare moments, have a look.

If I find I need another file fomat, I will let you know. Regardless, let's try to stay in touch. I can offer my humble talents to you, in exchange for your vast store of knowledge and skill.

I am excited to be making some progress on this long held dream. More importantly, I am getting to know some great people, from all around the world.

Thanks,

Mike

Originally Posted by Ozgur_Tan

i've just sent 3d dxf body shell to your email
please inform me if you can't import, i can send as 3ds, odj etc.
take a look to pictures of my scale cobra models
http://picasaweb.google.com/ozgur.ta...ey=MHSwFJ5XwMc
regards
ozgur

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

I agree on the smaller scales. I have Cobra models from HO model railroad scale up to the old MPC 1/16th one. I have a 1/6th scale Wedge, and a SOHC. Another great guy from this site, has sent me hundreds of pics of Cobras, and a set of chassis drawings. He was kind enough to photograph and measure his own side-oiler for me. I have pics of an FE, that I took quite awhile back. Now I can't read or figure out, the quick sketches and scribbles I did of that one. LOL
I have a weird quirk, when it comes to looking at something, and trying to draw or sketch it. I just can't seem to get everything to come out even, and in proportion. (I once missed a $60K per year job offer, because I couldn't mold a ball of clay to match another one.) So, bottom line is, I need all the help I can get. I would REALLY appreciate a copy of the blueprints. Let me know how you want to do it. I'd be happy to pay the costs of having some good copies done, and I will cover the postage too. With my DSL down, I am not sure my dialup connection could handle it if you'd rather send them by email attachment, but we can try, and if it doesn't work, we can try again after I get the DSL going again. If you have any other ideas on how to get a set of copies to me, let me know, and as I mentioned above, I'll pay you back for any fees that another method might need. Once I get the model going, I might

I just want to say to you, and all the other guys who have stepped up to help me, Thanks again.

Mike

Originally Posted by chuckbrandt

Mike,
I have a set of blueprints for the FE engine. Or you should find a real engine. Smaller scale models rarely (that I've seen) get the engine even close, most look like small block chevy's. I'm sure someone around tulsa has an engine on a stand you can measure.

Chuck

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

As an OLD model builder, I know top notch work when I see it. I'm into all kinds of models. And a lot of the plane, armor, and railroad model builders spend a great deal of time "weathering" their models to look realistically used. For some reason, most car models are in brand new, squeaky clean condition. Your brother does some really nice weathering. It's interesting, because I call myself a semi-pro too. If I mention that when I'm writing, I say it means I can't make a living at it. I am finally getting things together, and while I still can't make a living from it alone, I think I can at least pay for my addiction to tools and models, and maybe have a little left over!
Even though I am trying to get a lot of this type of stuff done, it is not a good time for commissioned model builders, at least for automotive models. There are so many top flight diecasts made. The really good ones cost a lot, but even the high dollar ones are a lot less than what an idependent model builder would have to charge, to make a living. So, there is just a handful of super-talented people, who also just happen to have the knack of marketing their skills.
Still, I have some ideas cooking. I can't promise anything, but keep an eye on this thread. Maybe if I can start making a little more headway, I can help your brother find a clientele. Again, I don't even have it myself yet, but if I ever do get it, I'll share with some people.











[/quote]

[ERA Chas]

Mike,
What materials will you use for the body and chassis? I assume you will cast the engine, trans, wheels, tires and rear in resin perhaps? Will you photoetch details?
None of the commercial models ever gets the windshield frame thickness (or any of the edge thicknesses-such as hood scoop) correct in look or scale. Roll bars and sidepipes are terrible too.
Best of luck in your efforts, I'm a 50 year modeler too and applaude your project. I will watch with interest.

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

I apologize in advance, that this will be a fairly long answer. I want to cover all the bases!
I haven't really decided on the best way to do the body. I am chatting with a couple of other modelers, and one has a CNC router. I am going to forward the cad drawing of the body, that Ozgur sent me, and see if the format is okay, etc. If that works, he'll make me a 1/8th form, and I'll lay up a fibreglass mold of it. With that mold made, I could either do fibreglass bodies, or with some extra steps, resin. If, for whatever reason, we can't do it that way, I am going to try to get a bunch of 1/8th cross sections from Ozgur's drawing. I will use the cross sections, and bondo, to make a buck, to take a fibreglass mold off of. Then, of course, I will be at the same stage as I would have been with the CNC master.
I haven't tried any tests yet, but I am also thinking I might be able to vac form the bodies out of sheet plastic. Normally, you can't vac form anything with sides that curve in and under, because it would end up locked to the mold. I have two ideas. I might try to make a master that would have some wedges to hold it together. I would assemble the master, and pull the plastic over it. Then, I would go to the bottom of the master, and take out the wedges, letting the master collapse and release the body. If this works, I could crank out bodies pretty quickly, and it wouldn't cost too much to make them. That would be great, because if I do try to sell some, the price would be a lot lower.
The other idea is based on the older Revell model cars, that had multipiece bodies you assembled. I would get a master made, by whatever method works best, and make a fibreglass copy of it. I would cut up the copy, into pieces with no undercuts, so the plastic would come right off the mold. I might have to make an intermediate casting to cut up. Then, I could set up each mold, and pull, say a dozen vac forms of it. I would do that for all the molds and pieces. Again, this would be fast and cheap. The problem here is that all the pieces would have to be assembled and carefully finished. If I did it, it would take more time, and I'd have to charge more. If I sold it in pieces the buyer had to put together, it might not appeal to less experienced modelers.
If I can work out the vac form process, I might make the engine blocks, transmissions, seats, etc. out of vac form plastic. Advantage: cheaper to make. Disadvantage: this would require more hand assembly work, like a multipiece body.
I'm thinking I MIGHT be able to vac form the tires. This would require some tricky molds, and hand assembly. MicroMark has a flexible casting material that can be colored. They say you can use it to make tires. I'll look into it, but I think it would more trouble, and cost more than resin. Not sure on this, yet.
At first, I am thinking of turned metal rims, and resin cast centers for the wheels. I'll just have to experiment and see if I can find a better way, for later.
Photoetching (PE): Several possible approaches here. I am learning to draw in CAD. If I can get good enough, I will do CAD drawings as PE patterns. The big advantage with this would be that I could print out the patterns in any scale. MicroMark has a PE kit, that uses CAD and an inkjet printer. The only potential problem I see here, is that I might not get fine enough resolution. If CAD is out, I will go the old way, and hand draw the patterns, to be photoreduced. I don't really have the best tools to etch with this method, so I would probably have to go to a commercial photo etching firm. Cost would be a factor here. Either way, PE is the best way to go for many of the parts, so, I will try real hard to work this out.
Right now, I can't think of a better way to do the chassis than soldered brass tubing. I have a resistance soldering outfit, so that would help a lot. I will build some jigs and fixtures, to assemble them.
That last paragraph brought up something that I discussed about the bodies. Since I will be looking for buyers of a lot of different skill levels and preferences, I will probably have to design the entire project with assembly in mind. I can see the chance that I would have buyers of several types. They will be anywhere from hard core model builders, who can and want to, do most of the assembly work, to those who want a finished model. I will have to figure out how to balance everything to serve all of them. I also might be willing to sell a few parts at a time, to builders on a tight budget.
You are absolutely right about scale thickness. Since the larger the model, the easier it is to get close to scale, I will start with the advantage of working in 1/8th scale. I might explore using actual sheet metal for the hood, hood scoop, doors, and trunk lid. This will have to be a matter of cost and time. I would really have to make resin or metal dies, and maybe some special metal working tools, so I need to work on that Idea. On the windshield frame, I have no good answer right now. I'll have to think about it.
Getting the whole model to look accurate and realistic, is a major goal for me. I'd like to have it where, with a good photo of the model, you'd have a hard time telling it was not a real car. I really think the 1/24th Monogram 427 S/C has the best body shape. The 1/16th MPC kit was, I think, based on a kit car, and not a genuine Cobra. It has a weird mix of features, and the body doesn't look quite right to me. Plus it is supplied with ridiculously wide rear tires. At the time I built the purple on my website, I was still doing mostly box stock builds with a few extra details. I didn't want the rear tires to stick out of the wheel wells, so I chopped the suspension severely, to make the tires fit. (sort of like a pro-street car)
As to correct shapes of other parts, I have some big advantages. There is a gentleman I met through a forum, who has given me a ton of pictures of the real cars, with all the details. This is a tremendous help.
I also have several other online friends whose help and encouragement have made me feel like I will actually be able to see this difficult, complex project through. You are now one of these friends.
So, congratulations on being a long time modeler. It's a great hobby. And a huge thanks for your interest and support.
I will post here, periodically, to report progress, or lack of progress. I'd like to see some of your work. Could you post some, or email me with some pics? My email is mrhenley@yahoo.com
Thanks

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Mike,

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

What materials will you use for the body and chassis? I assume you will cast the engine, trans, wheels, tires and rear in resin perhaps? Will you photoetch details?
None of the commercial models ever gets the windshield frame thickness (or any of the edge thicknesses-such as hood scoop) correct in look or scale. Roll bars and sidepipes are terrible too.
Best of luck in your efforts, I'm a 50 year modeler too and applaude your project. I will watch with interest.

[Ozgur_Tan]

mike,
i used irhino3d to create sections
regards
ozgur

[mrhenley@yahoo.com]

I think I still have a rhino demo. I will try to do the cross sections. If I can't, may I impose on you once again, and ask you to do it for me?

Thanks,
Mike