Looking for Canadian Cobra

[markham51]

Hello fellow car enthusiasts!

I am a Canadian who lives 6 months each year 2 hrs north of Toronto (Muskokas) and the remaining 6 months in Wilmington, NC.

I currently own 3 Shelby Mustangs (68GT500 KR Convert, 07 GT500 725hp SuperSnake, 07 GT500 Convert).

Its time to own my first CSX or facsimile.

Apparently Canadian laws restrict me from importing a car under 15years old (must provide proof of 15 years registration so no faking allowed)

I could construct a car from parts (not likely given my lack of mechanics skills)

I could simply buy a car in the US and keep it there... however I really would like to drive the Cobra in Canada where I spend my summers.

I could buy a vehicle "home built" by someone in Canada legally...my concern is keeping it running of course.

I could partner with an existing Canadian Cobra owner (who has necessary mechanical skills)...not sure where I would find one. ie split capital and operating costs.

If there is anyone out there with any good ideas/options, please let me know.

In the mean time, I plan to cruise the forums here from time to time and get myself up to speed on your cars as well as my options.

Best regards,


Mark

[1985 CCX]

http://www.clubcobra.com/classifieds...t=1540&cat=500

This one fits your profile?

[SunDude]

Hi Mark,

I'm a fellow Canadian who spent the last year seriously looking - and utlimately buying - his first Cobra replica. I looked at cars already in Canada as well as older cars from the U.S. I ended up buying one of the few Superformance Cobras in Canada and am very happy with my choice. That said I have a few suggestions that might be worth considering.

To start, which is your permanent residence - Ontario or North Carolina? If it's NC, then you can probably register the car there and bring it with you to Ontario for the summers without difficulty.

If you decide to buy and register the car in Ontario, than you are right that Transport Canada prohibits the importation of kit cars under 15 years of age, no fooling with the ol' "it's titled as a 1965 Ford" business.

I found that the Cobras already in Canada were a real mixed bag. If you're looking for something with a CSX level of authenticity, you'll have a hard time finding something other than an SPF or possibly an ERA or Contemporary (but I came across virtually none in my search). There are plenty of FFRs around and a few Midstates and Shell Valleys, some better than others.

D&D Cobra makes a nice car, but cannot legally sell you a kit or turnkey across provincial boundaries (TC regs apply in these cases). But you can buy a used Cobra interprovincially without trouble.

Look into insurance before buying your Cobra. There are very few companies that will cover Cobra replicas in Ontario. Zehr will provide collector car insurance (OPFC 19a) for "professionally built replicas" only, such as SPF. Lant & Co. will cover Cobra replicas only if they're at least 15 years old. I know of one State Farm agent who will cover Cobra kits, but they don't offer agreed-value coverage. Everyone else (incl. nearly all home builds) ends up in Facility Association.

There are lots of owners up here who have improperly titled and insured their Cobra replicas, so be careful about that too.

You can import a used Cobra replica from the U.S. provided you can document its age (i.e., month+year when car was completed and/or registered for road use). This is easier said than done. Most cars that are at least 15 years old have been through several owners and the seller probably doesn't have the original paperwork.

On the other hand, Jeff (1985 CCX) does have a car for sale that could be imported and he does have the right paperwork. I was very seriously considering this car, but then my SPF suddenly came up for sale in Ontario and things worked out differently.

Good luck in your search. Feel free to PM me if there's something you want to discuss offline.

[twobjshelbys]

See Mark? I told you you'd get good info here! Welcome - you'll learn alot here.

[racco]

I may have what your looking for, already here in toronto. A contemporary with 427 side oiler, dual holleys, top loader, red on black, etc etc. Send me a pm

regards

[mk2gt40]

Mark,
Having unfortunately been dragged into the Macro/Superformance vs Tpt Canada case, I feel I can possibly help/advise you.My 289 Le Mans,Usrrc,fia Riverside project is now very close to completion and meets all the criteria required by Tpt Canada. I also have a contact to assist on sourcing the required/donor parts etc who may be interested in assisting/sharing with you to make it a legal car kit and not a kit car.
You can contact me with pleasure on the tel number I p.m. you
Ross

[markham51]

Lots of good advice and options here.

I obviously have a lot to learn about the "shadowy world" of Canadian Cobra ownership!

Titling issues, insurability issues...interprovincial transportation issues and then there are all of the different makes of Cobras...some I have never heard of....

Once again...thank you all. Ill get back to you this week with questions.


Mark

[Argess]

Just to explain a bit more, Canadians are not allowed to import a Kit car into Canada. This is a Transport Canada law and is enforced on thier behalf by Canada Customs (border guards).

The reason for this is TC wants to ensure there are no shoddliy built kitcars coming into Canada. (Don't get mad at me....i.e. don't shoot the messenger).

Now, a kitcar doesn't necessarily mean assembled. As long as there is a body and frame together, it is considered an automobile, even though it is dissassembled. The body and frame can even be in seperate shipments, but it's still illegal.

However, TC recognizes it is against ...er....entrenpreneurism?.....rights of citizens?...monopolies?....something along that line......to keep someone from building their own car from parts.....i.e. more or less "scratch".

So, parts may be brought in, but the body and frame definately need seperate reciepts, etc.

To my knowledge, only Factory Five has bothered to deal with Transport Canada, and actually has established Canadian Custom Tarriff numbers for their two main shipments.

Even still, some Canadian "entrepeneurs" (spelling) have tried to represent out-of-country Kit Car companies, and tried things like importing 10 frames at a time, but eventually, the "law" put them out of business.

It's a tricky thing to do, but can be done, and legal at that. It's not a loophole, it's an allowance that makes it absolutely impossible for a person non-inclined to build, to import a kitcar already built, or at a minimum, consisting of a body and a frame, into Canada.

Now, in the eventuality a Canadian wants to build a kit, he must get a Customs Broker, Depsite Canada's Freedom of Information Act, it is almost impossible to get Tarrif Number descriptions unless you are a Broker. Once armed with photo-copies of the Tarrif Numbers and their descrioptions, bringing the parts across the border should be quite easy.

Certificates of Origin may also be required as they pertain to the US-Canada Free-Trade agreement and may affect the duties imposed (i.e. $$$ you ahve to pay on imported items).

Now, I am basing this on research I did many, many years ago. It is up to you to find out the current situation, but as far as I know, it hasn't changed.

PS: I know this doesn't affect the original poster's desires, but thought it opportune to mention it here. And "hey", what about Johnex? They made a pretty good kit and it is in Ontario....available right up to turn-key I think. They still in business?

[markham51]

Originally Posted by SunDude

Hi Mark,

I'm a fellow Canadian who spent the last year seriously looking - and utlimately buying - his first Cobra replica. I looked at cars already in Canada as well as older cars from the U.S. I ended up buying one of the few Superformance Cobras in Canada and am very happy with my choice. That said I have a few suggestions that might be worth considering.

To start, which is your permanent residence - Ontario or North Carolina? If it's NC, then you can probably register the car there and bring it with you to Ontario for the summers without difficulty.

If you decide to buy and register the car in Ontario, than you are right that Transport Canada prohibits the importation of kit cars under 15 years of age, no fooling with the ol' "it's titled as a 1965 Ford" business.

I found that the Cobras already in Canada were a real mixed bag. If you're looking for something with a CSX level of authenticity, you'll have a hard time finding something other than an SPF or possibly an ERA or Contemporary (but I came across virtually none in my search). There are plenty of FFRs around and a few Midstates and Shell Valleys, some better than others.

D&D Cobra makes a nice car, but cannot legally sell you a kit or turnkey across provincial boundaries (TC regs apply in these cases). But you can buy a used Cobra interprovincially without trouble.

Look into insurance before buying your Cobra. There are very few companies that will cover Cobra replicas in Ontario. Zehr will provide collector car insurance (OPFC 19a) for "professionally built replicas" only, such as SPF. Lant & Co. will cover Cobra replicas only if they're at least 15 years old. I know of one State Farm agent who will cover Cobra kits, but they don't offer agreed-value coverage. Everyone else (incl. nearly all home builds) ends up in Facility Association.

There are lots of owners up here who have improperly titled and insured their Cobra replicas, so be careful about that too.

You can import a used Cobra replica from the U.S. provided you can document its age (i.e., month+year when car was completed and/or registered for road use). This is easier said than done. Most cars that are at least 15 years old have been through several owners and the seller probably doesn't have the original paperwork.

On the other hand, Jeff (1985 CCX) does have a car for sale that could be imported and he does have the right paperwork. I was very seriously considering this car, but then my SPF suddenly came up for sale in Ontario and things worked out differently.

Good luck in your search. Feel free to PM me if there's something you want to discuss offline.

Unfortuately any Canadian driving a US plated vehicle accross the border is deemed to be importing it! Apparently that's so TC doesnt have to chase you around to drive it back out some day. I learned this first hand two summers ago when I thought it might be nice to bring my C6 Corvette (registered in NC) up to Canada for the summer. Upon reaching the border, I was ushered into the Customs area where they made me pay GST on the spot! I had 30 days to make changes required (new bumpers) or ship it back to the US. I ended up shipping it back and getting the GST back but it was a major hassle involving lawyers etc.

I even thought... I would have my daughter (US citizen) buy the car and I would borrow it. Still a no go. According to Customs...these cars are not allowed in Canada...period and Ill get turned back at the border.

My preference was/is for a CSX or a Superformance roller with a Rousch 427. My rationale was simple...a modern engine is easily serviced and a roller is well integrated. If I have to venture too far away from that idea I might be too apprehensive to pull the trigger on one. I know many Cobra owners enjoy putting kits together and they do a great job of it, but I am primarily a driver (not a mechanic) by nature.

So...here we go. An adventure to be sure. Ill give you a call sometime and we can chat. Thanks very much for filling me in.


Regards


Mark

[markham51]

Originally Posted by Argess

Just to explain a bit more, Canadians are not allowed to import a Kit car into Canada. This is a Transport Canada law and is enforced on thier behalf by Canada Customs (border guards).

The reason for this is TC wants to ensure there are no shoddliy built kitcars coming into Canada. (Don't get mad at me....i.e. don't shoot the messenger).

Now, a kitcar doesn't necessarily mean assembled. As long as there is a body and frame together, it is considered an automobile, even though it is dissassembled. The body and frame can even be in seperate shipments, but it's still illegal.

However, TC recognizes it is against ...er....entrenpreneurism?.....rights of citizens?...monopolies?....something along that line......to keep someone from building their own car from parts.....i.e. more or less "scratch".

So, parts may be brought in, but the body and frame definately need seperate reciepts, etc.

To my knowledge, only Factory Five has bothered to deal with Transport Canada, and actually has established Canadian Custom Tarriff numbers for their two main shipments.

Even still, some Canadian "entrepeneurs" (spelling) have tried to represent out-of-country Kit Car companies, and tried things like importing 10 frames at a time, but eventually, the "law" put them out of business.

It's a tricky thing to do, but can be done, and legal at that. It's not a loophole, it's an allowance that makes it absolutely impossible for a person non-inclined to build, to import a kitcar already built, or at a minimum, consisting of a body and a frame, into Canada.

Now, in the eventuality a Canadian wants to build a kit, he must get a Customs Broker, Depsite Canada's Freedom of Information Act, it is almost impossible to get Tarrif Number descriptions unless you are a Broker. Once armed with photo-copies of the Tarrif Numbers and their descrioptions, bringing the parts across the border should be quite easy.

Certificates of Origin may also be required as they pertain to the US-Canada Free-Trade agreement and may affect the duties imposed (i.e. $$$ you ahve to pay on imported items).

Now, I am basing this on research I did many, many years ago. It is up to you to find out the current situation, but as far as I know, it hasn't changed.

PS: I know this doesn't affect the original poster's desires, but thought it opportune to mention it here. And "hey", what about Johnex? They made a pretty good kit and it is in Ontario....available right up to turn-key I think. They still in business?

Thanks for the additional info.

In summary, except for 15 year old cars (with proper documentation), rollers and completed cars are out. I can however buy a kit (eg a Factory Five Kit) and have someone build me a car here in Canada.

Thanks much,


Mark

[Karl Bebout]

Several months ago there was a beautiful Pigeon Cobra, on Cobra Country, for sale out on the East side of Canada. Was a beautiful car, manufactured in Canada. You might want to see if they are still in business. Was a first class looking car.

[rustyBob]

markham51....if you can find a Midstates Cobra in Canada thats for sale you should consider buying it,they are a top notch kit that can be easily serviced or repaired,they have one of the strongest bodys on the market and a very stout frame.Good luck on your search

[Excaliber]

The shadowy world of Canadian Cobra ownership.

I can relate to that! Until just a few years ago you could not legally register a replica Cobra on Oahu. No way, no loop holes, CANNOT be done, period! ...and yet, here we were, a shadowy group of Cobra owners that some how managed to get them registered. Details of which were rarely openly talked about and NEVER until someone actually BOUGHT one. Showing he was a true believer, the various methods were brought forth in hushed tones. Within a short time frame, by golly we had us a new member of our "secret society".

[Venamm]

How confusing

[mk2gt40]

The Macro case was based on the words 'importing of illegal VEHICLES" and a criminal charge laid against Skok for the above. The Fed case became what is a vehicle? That is the case that Superformance won and therefore the criminal case was withdrawn.
That outcome had nothing to do with,"are kit cars allowed into Canada." so trying to enforce that outcome was futile as even then it was illegal to import kit cars.
Ross

[SunDude]

Mark,

This thread seems to have got a bit into the weeds on the subject of importing kit cars into Canada, so maybe it’s time to back up a bit. From what you’ve written so far, I take it that:

• you’re a Canadian citizen (Ontario resident) living temporarily in the U.S. (North Carolina);
• you’re looking to buy a completed car, turnkey or resale, but aren’t looking to build one;
• you’re looking for an authentic replica of high quality (CSX or similar);
• you have the “means” to do this right.

I would think that not only would you want to use the Cobra in Ontario during the summer, but you would also want to use it in N.C. during the winter months. If this is the case, then you are gonna first need to understand what’s required to bring the car temporarily into both Canada and the U.S. and how to insure it while it is in either location. Sounds like you have some homework to do. This was not my situation, so I cannot help you here.

I researched my purchase for some time before buying, because I didn’t want any nasty surprises and couldn’t afford to gamble my hard-earned savings. Nothing was impossible, but everything was complicated by the fact that these replicas are considered “kit cars” in Canada; don’t know about N.C. but there are lots of members here who could help you.

Like you I was not looking to build a car. I wanted to buy one and drive it. Like you I wanted an authentic Cobra replica, built with modern components. Like you I was considering both turnkeys and resales. But frankly the used Cobra market, especially in the U.S., is absolutely flush with excellent cars at prices far below the cost of a turnkey and I really couldn’t justify going the turnkey route ($$). It might be different for you.

I used many different websites to find resale Cobras including: www.CobraCountry.com, The classifieds on www.ClubCobra.com, www.AutoTrader.ca, www.Hemmings.com, www.kijiji.ca and www.LesPAC.com among others. But which kit to choose? Everyone has his preference, but for the most authentic-looking Cobras you might want to consider CSX4000/6000s (the real thing), Kirkham Motorsports, ERA Replicas, Superformance and Contemporary Classic (CCX). There are a few of these cars in Canada and plenty in the U.S.

If you’re interested there’s an original 427 street Cobra (CSX3287) for sale at Legendary Motorcar in Milton ON – http://www.legendarymotorcar.com/site/524. This is a highly regarded restoration company which originated as a Shelby specialty shop. They also have a spectacular ERA 289FIA Cobra replica for sale – http://www.legendarymotorcar.com/site/640.

I know of eight CSX4000 Cobras in Canada, but don’t think any is for sale right now.

I know of two Kirkham Cobras in Canada and one of them (KMP529) is for sale right now in Ontario – http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4sa...anley-kirkham/.

There are three Superformance Cobras for sale in Canada on Auto Trader, including one in Barrie, one in Oakville, and one in Surrey B.C. I know there recently was a 10th anniversary edition SPF for sale in Toronto, too.

There are a few Cobra replica manufacturers in Canada who could build you a turnkey including: www.Johnex3Motorsports.com (Niagara Falls ON), www.BossReplicaMotors.com (Burlington ON), www.DDCobra.com (Saint-Paul-de-l'Île-aux-Noix PQ) and www.PigeonPerformance.com (Ste-Julienne PQ). I tried contacting them all, but only heard back from two. I’m sure the Factory Five reps at www.WesternCanadaCobras.com in Calgary AB could help you find a professional builder in Ontario to assemble a car for you.

Registering a Cobra replica/kit in Ontario is well documented and relatively straightforward, from what I can tell. The car I bought had been properly registered as a “kit car” with a Ministry-assigned VIN number (ASD...) and is therefore exempt from the Drive Clean program.

Insurance is as I wrote before.

Transport Canada is the federal department responsible for road safety standards and regulations. Simply put all vehicles manufactured for sale in Canada must meet federal safety and emissions regulations. Cobra replicas obviously don’t. However, the provincial government in Ontario does allow people to build kit cars and register them for road use, provided they meet provincial safety requirements (i.e., safety check), which is how everyone here gets their Cobra replicas on the street.

TC’s jurisdiction covers both international and interprovincial trade in vehicles. So unless a Cobra replica manufacturer can certify its products to meet Canadian standards, its cars cannot legally be sold across national or provincial boundaries. Furthermore, used cars cannot be imported from any country other than the U.S. TC publishes an annual list of admissible vehicles from the U.S. which specifically excludes all kit cars. The Canada Border Services Agency enforces TC’s motor vehicle regulations at the border. Here are some key documents on the subject:

• TC Fact Sheet CL9203(E), List of Vehicles Admissible from the United States (http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safev...list/vafus.pdf)
• TC Fact Sheet TP 2436E, Kit Cars in Canada (http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp...00804/menu.htm)
• CBSA Memorandum D19-12-1, Importation of Vehicles (http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/publications/d...9-12-1-eng.pdf)
• CBSA Memorandum D10-14-45, Tariff Classification of Kit Cars (http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/publications/d...-14-45-eng.pdf)
• CBSA Memorandum D2-4-1, Temporary Importation of Conveyances by Residents of Canada (http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/publications/d...d2-4-1-eng.pdf)
• CBSA Memorandum D8-1-1, Temporary Importation (Tariff Item No. 9993.00.00) Regulations (http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/publications/d...d8-1-1-eng.pdf)

Canada’s motor vehicle safety regulations currently apply to all vehicles less than 15 years old, which is how people can import older Cobras and other cars from any country. Vehicles of this vintage are exempt from the Registrar of Imported Vehicles (RIV) process too. However, all this could change someday; TC has been considering extending the 15 year period (see http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/safev...Rule/index.htm) mainly because of all the right-hand drive Nissan GT-Rs that young guys are importing.

So what this means is that you probably cannot import a new CSX4000/6000, Kirkham, ERA or Superformance into Canada, as TC prohibits the importation of kit cars under 15 years of age, whether assembled or in parts. So how does FFR get around this, you might ask? From what I understand FFR has worked with TC to determine just how “complete” their kits can be to not be classified as an unassembled vehicle. Unless you plan to import a kit from Kirkham or ERA or another company to build yourself in Canada, then you don’t need to worry about this. If you do go this way, then talk to Ross (mk2gt40) as he has first-hand knowledge of this.

Whew! That's the biggest post I ever made here.

Anyways, the bottom line is: Figure out what you really want and do your homework. I read everything I could find and called everyone I needed to, to figure out the lay of the land. But in the end, my Cobra is in my garage. There can be one in yours, too.

[SunDude]

Originally Posted by Karl Bebout

Several months ago there was a beautiful Pigeon Cobra, on Cobra Country, for sale out on the East side of Canada. Was a beautiful car, manufactured in Canada. You might want to see if they are still in business. Was a first class looking car.

This is the car you're thinking of -- http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4sa...geon/home.html. It was sold to a guy in Ottawa by a guy in Kanata, which is in the west end of town. I bumped into the new owner two weeks ago at the antique car show at Upper Canada Village. The car was nice, but like most Pigeon Cobras, had many custom features. Fine if you're looking for that, but I wasn't.

Garage Pigeon Performance is still in business. I saw several used Pigeon Cobras for sale during my search, esp. on www.LesPAC.com and www.AutoTrader.ca, if you're interested.

[markham51]

SD, sincere thanks for taking the time to lay everything out in such detail! Well written and researched, thank you very much. You have saved me a whole lot of time and effort... better spent on finding the right car. I have exhausted all of the sources you provided and it is apparent, the right car for me is not out there at the moment (in Canada that is). There are a couple of vehicles that are out there that I would buy, but they are not at a reasonable price for a used vehicle IMHO, eg. Superformance at Toyota Barrie at 114k (plus tax). There are build out options... but those get to be just too expensive with the right engine. I only spend about 5 months a year in Ontario and don't want to have yet another 100k invested for a cruise or two.

It may very well make sense for me to own a US vehicle. The market place is full of cars that meet my criteria (roller with modern power plant). While it means I won't be able to drive it in Canada, it would allow me to drive a vehicle I have always wanted to own without a lot of hassles.

In the mean time, I will keep on looking.


Thanks again!


Mark

[SunDude]

Mark - The simple truth is that you're spoilt for choice in the U.S. right now. The better quality Cobra replicas in Canada, like Superformance, are somewhat inflated in value due to their rarity. The SPF at Jackson Toyota is priced ridiculously high and will never sell at that price IMO; the blue SPF in B.C. is more fairly priced for this market I think. Am glad to have helped and wish you all the best in your Cobra hunt.

[AlexCobra]

Originally Posted by mk2gt40

Mark,
Having unfortunately been dragged into the Macro/Superformance vs Tpt Canada case, I feel I can possibly help/advise you.My 289 Le Mans,Usrrc,fia Riverside project is now very close to completion and meets all the criteria required by Tpt Canada. I also have a contact to assist on sourcing the required/donor parts etc who may be interested in assisting/sharing with you to make it a legal car kit and not a kit car.
You can contact me with pleasure on the tel number I p.m. you
Ross

Perhaps I would need some information on that, I'm in Quebec and finishing up a cobra build. I would like too make sure it meets all the requirements...