AC 289 Original

[hey,littlecobra]

Trevor, hello! Hello Wilf. Trust you had a nice birthday. While visiting the fine UK couple weeks ago, we had the opportunity to stay with friends on the Isle of Man. Very nice location. Our hosts are very familiar with the Cobra, and found it "amusing" I have a 427 Replica. He is looking at the Caterham R500, and while looking thru his brochures I found it to be a very nice car. I suspect sometime I'll get the email that he's purchased it! He was very informative on the Cobra, and while he's done some small time racing, has never raced in a Cobra. I for one am glad I'm no expert on the Cobra, as I just have a great time with it. All these experts need to "lighten up" a bit.

Cheers, back to you!
Kristen
edit: I realize this thread is in the "cobras for sale" and as I stated in an earlier post, I really like this car!

[Allan A]

thanks ron

[What'saCobra?]

TL
Touche´ and cheers back at ya, matey.

Argghh! Why do i always ventilate about that subject? (1, breathe, 2, breathe, 3, breathe...)

And i try to keep people straight about our dearest Benjamin Franklin, also. Not easy. There is absolutely no evidence that Dr. Franklin had any titilating relationships with anyone in England when he was at court, but the rumors persist. But, of course, Paris was a different matter, altogether.

He didn't really care for the french (smart guy, ay wot?), just needed their support for the war, or at least promises not to help the Brits. So he didn't respect french women, either.

Now, John Paul Jones (the father of both the American Navy and the Russian Navy), in the Tsarina's court, another kettle of fish and likely another site.

{JPJ was run out of Russia, despite his superb rebuild of the Russian Navy and the wins against the Ottoman Navy, due to somewhat unclear accusations of siring a child to a seriously underage woman/child.}

But, all Cobras are beautiful, exciting and real. Even those of which we dream.

i admit i might be tempted to shift a "cob" to taste the R500 and a wee cash. Like driving a 2000cc sports racer on the street.

[Trevor Legate]

Hi to all the above!!!

In spite of the way my little posting read, I am very cool re the American take on AC Cars. Its really quite funny in its own frustratingly endearing way (I think I might have split an infinitive there, but I know Watsa will pull me up on that score)
I was having exactly the same discussion over Sunday lunch in the pub where the West Sussex branch of the AC Owners Club gather (with their AC's. Sorry) The consensus of opinion re the whole darn Cobra saga is that it only becomes seriously annoying, and little criminal, when nasty fakes are passed off as 'genuine' ACs or Shelbys. Other than that, who really cares....? You say Shelby, I say AC and there must be a song there somewhere.

Looking forward to your Benjamin Franklin and JP Jones postings, Whatsa. There's just too much Cobra-related stuff on this site!! Go for it.

Hi Wilf. Glad you saw my little diatribe, but, here we go again, spreading misinformation - shame on you! It was in the Sunday Times not the Daily Telegraph!!! Which refers back to my last posting re getting the FACTS right. What you did read in the Telegraph was an article about the Superformance Coupe (Daytona to its friends??) that i had driven just a few days before and been treated to a major blast down some very narrow country lanes, courtesy of Nigel Hulme, who can really drive monsters like that. Put years on me.... Now that is one very very seriously fast machine, but even turning in a 0 - 60 time of 3.9 secs is still too high-geared as it will pull over 200 as it stands and really starts flying above 100. Boy, does it fly. The joy of the R500 is that it gives you all those thrills up to 120 but the Coupe delivers above that speed, so farewell to the old driving licence and hello to Her Majestys prison. Mind you when that 6.6-litre Rousch starts hammering away above 4500 rpm.......almost worth the risk. Me, I never go above 70, occifer.
And you can read of my exploits in a forthcoming issue of Kit Car magazine (and I know its not a kit in the UK, but they pay me so keep it quiet)

[KeithBrown]

Trevor,

Any update on your new book? Many of us here are anxiously awaiting a release date.

Best Regards,

Keith

[Trevor Legate]

Dear Anxiously Waiting..............

Hi Keith

You are not alone, I'm anxious as well. Its a long boring story but I keep getting commissions to write motoring books over a four month period, which is almost impossible but it pays (not a lot) but they get in the way of the Cobra.

The Cobra book is my first daring foray into the murky world of publishing and I want to get it right and do a proper job. The deadline to finish my current project is September 6th and on the 7th, I'm back to the Cobra!! Actually, the design of the first few chapters is under way and I am putting the photos into the text of the final chapters. Then we get quotes for printing, get depressed, try to find a co-publisher (hello America!!) and push the button and print the darn thing. I am also hoping to attract an investor to back this and several other books we have in the pipeline. If this does not happen, I will back the printing costs myself and hope I can attract sufficient advance orders. I had not intended to promote the book through this site (honest) but if people are interested I will attempt to load more details and page layouts, if nobody objects. Its on its way, slowly, but it will happen!!

[KeithBrown]

Dear Trevor,

I for one, can't wait. While not in a position myself to finance your worthy endeavour, I can state that I definately will be a purchaser of your book. I am quite confident that there are many others who frequent this site.

Good luck and best regards,

Keith

[Trevor Legate]

Thanks Keith & everyone.

My postings have not been in vain, it seems there might be a chink of light at the end of the tunnel. Sorry to have hi-jacked this thread - back to selling an 'AC Original'.

Trevor

Futility - whats the point of that then?

[mylesdw]

Originally posted by Excaliber

What was "done here" was considerably more than what AC could manage to do. It took Carol Shelbys "team" to figure out how to make the car a winner. Substantial up-grades across the board were incorporated by AC at SHELBYS DIRECTION.

"AC was little more than a group of craftsman who under Shelbys direction made cars for him. LOTS of people can make cars, only a few can make successful RACE CARS. AC was not one of these people."
[/b]

I think you may have been taken in by Shelby's spin in just the way in which he intended. The AC Ace-Bristol was already a very successful race car on both sides of the Atlantic. So much so that both sets of authorities saw fit to re-class it to make it run against much tougher competition. In the late fifties it was placed in the top ten at Le Mans overall which for a 2 litre car was pretty impressive.

The majority of upgrades that Shelby laid claim to had already been performed by AC when they produced the lAce 2.6. The picture of a chassis used in Shelby's sales literature was actually not a Cobra chassis but belonged to this little known missing link.

The credit for the concept, the name, the project management and the success of the venture undoubtedly lies with CS but the Cobra is and always has been a British sports car with an American engine. It is a great combination from a joint venture, don't knock it.

To quote Derek Hurlock:
"You cannot say the AC Cobra eventually became an American design - it was always virtually the same car based on the AC Ace. But let's face it, it was Shelby who came to us with the idea"

[Excaliber]

The fact that AC had some winning cars is no doubt much of the reason Shelby was attracted to the marque in the first place. And,,, no doubt, CS is the master of "spin"

But I stand by my statement, it was the Shelby "team" that made the car a 'world class' winner. And of course, AC was a substantial part of the team! A most brilliant joint effort that made Ferrari take notice!

[What'saCobra?]

It is certainly true that the AC Bristol was already a "world class" competitor long before CS came to the Hurlocks to buy the AC's ultra-lightweight chassis, completely finished with the world's finest equipment and materials, on credit.

Fortunately for us all, the Hurlocks did not request a simple credit check on CS or they would have demurred; since he had declared bancrupcy from the chicken ranch not so long before. They liked the guy's pushy attitude, his driving history, his claims of FORD credit (did he have this in hand yet?) and the idea (since they needed an engine.)

They were not at that moment happy with Ken Rudd, an AC dealer, who turned out to be less difficult to deal with than CS, which they were later to learn. It was Ken that first put the World-class Bristol engine in an ACE in 1956 and which helped AC achieve greatness with the ACE Bristol.

The AC won the SCCA National Championship in E Production in 1957, 1958 and 1959 before the SCCA bumped it up into D Production (where it won the Championship in 1960) and then up into C Production (where it won the 1961 Championship.) The car was unbeatable when prepped and driven correctly and CS knew all this.

And Le Mans.

In fact, his pitch to FORD for the free engines he needed particularly included emphasis on the marvelous "world class" performance of the AC Bristol through the recent years and the cars' high reliability and superb build quality (which was on a par with Aston Martin with hand formed alloy body, Connelly leather, Smiths gauges, Wilton wool carpets, superleggera construction, etc.)

CS also knew about the success of many lightweight California "specials" that ran european chassis, for instance Aston Martins, with chevy V-8's in SCCA and other races with great success. That is why he tried to get Chevy to give him some engines first, before FORD. Duntov was very successful in chopping CS's Balzacks off on this subject, since it was a threat to Zora's precious Corvette; which was much heavier, since it wasn't superleggera construction (tube frame, alloy body), had a large old design chassis, production parts, live axle, drum brakes and thick fiberglass bits.

CS wanted to copy that success and although his driving career was finished, to him the formula for racing success was very apparent.

By the way, the same Ken Rudd put a 2.6 liter FORD 6 cylinder (Zephyr) in the AC chassis, called it the RuddSpeed and was very quick indeed. AC was then building the ACE 2.6 and already buying from FORD. But, sales were not exciting. AC tried to get the GM alloy V-8, but Rover got that. AC tried to get the Daimler V-8, but missed that because Daimler was putting it in the Dart and in-house competition was rejected for the same reasons Duntov kept the Chevy V-8 from Shelby.

So, AC needed something, rather quickly and they took a chance on CS. Good thing they did.

None of this rich history takes anything away from CS the men at SA that REALLY made the Cobra happen.

Now, if you really want to get torqued, where do you think the Cobra name came from? A Dream? Perhaps.

But, it is worth recalling that in 1955 Chris Craft manufactured 106 limited production 2 seat exclusive sports boats with a really big stabilizing vertical fin called the COBRA. It had available a Cadillac V-8 engine, among others, and was capable of well over 50 MPH on water. For a production boat this was spectacular. Once seen, never to be forgotton, particularly at the time. They are still show stoppers. They were sold in California particularly well. Very beautiful and very expensive. Hard to find, but very quick.

Do you think CS saw one of these and liked the moniker? I do. And it was a good idea, wasn't it?

Much more surprising, why doesn't anyone ever talk about this name on a super-high-performance boat cum-superleggera racer?

One man's opinion, of course, doesn't make a horse race.

[Trevor Legate]

Hi Whatsa

Thanks for the above - saved me a lot of typing!!

Note - A bog-standard AC Ace was 'volunterered' by Ken Rudd to enter Le Mans (1957 I think, mislaid the details) from an easily-persuaded (to race ) lady owner and they just added the minimum legal requirments to get it scrutineered and pottered around in blistering heat for 24 Hours while everyone broke or crashed and it won its class! They then drove home via Paris when champagne was drunk at the AC showrooms, got squiffy, carried on to Blighty and two days later she was using it as her shopping car again. Not bad for a "crappy little ol' car with buggy springs."

Note: Ken Rudd promoted the Ford 2.6 engine (quite quick!) but Charles Hurlock thought it was too 'common' to reside 'neath the hood of an AC and virtually told Rudd to go away and take his engine with him. They did not promote the car at all. Pity. Rudd was very annoyed and never helped AC again.

Note: Interesting that the first Shelby sales literature extolled the qualities and virtues of the 'AC legend' but the next brochure never gave them a mention. You soon find out who your friends are......

Did you know??? When the first working prototype Cobra was taken for a 'road test' on the roads around Thames Ditton, they could'nt get the doors open afterwards due to chassis-flex. They had to whack them open with a mallet.

[What'saCobra?]

Swell! What a fine story about the lady ACEer. Who was she and does she still breathe? What a heroine!

The mallet thingy could well be so, though vaguely apocryphal. I've seen them using the mallet and leather bean bags on hinges and lids during normal construction after Brian took them for his test circuit.

An additional 100in3 from the first 260 FORD likely created an additional 100ft.lbs. of torque on the somewhat lightly gusseted original ladder frame designed for perhaps 120 ft.lb. in total. Nearly a 50% overload does not bode well for maintaining the initial geometry. Which is why the chassis got upgrades, by AC, at AC and designed by AC, as well as suggestions from the SA organization and their subsequent race experience. Some upgrades only happened at the tracks in the USA and later in prep. for Le Mans and the Targa and never even made the street production cars.

You all likely know that the vertical spring towers in both the front and rear were seriously strengthened in addition to an upgrade to the larger Salisbury specification rear axle. You may not have noticed, unless you are here a while, that the Daytonas had a rather complex "bridge truss" under the aly gearbox covers, surrounding the transmission, that ran from the rear upright to the front upright, increasing frame stiffness very significantly. Very cool.

In europe, even FIA 289 roadsters might contain this structure (I've seen one for sure), since it was approved on the FIA Daytona chassis as a mere "variance"; not unlike the hugely different and very unique aero body of Pete Brock fame, which was also just considered a variance of the type of 289.

Ferrari fumed about the Daytona shape being approved, but he had no success with his complaint. HE was entering a few GTOs himself, way under the usual minimum quantities. Normal behavior for il Commendatore. To keep from losing the World Manufacturer's Championship to Shelby, he had the Monza race organizers cancel the race. But, that is another bigger story.

Yep, CS just couldn't stand it that AC got ANY credit for anything at all. His disrespect for others efforts is rather legendary, including those of his own people, who excelled despite they frequently had to go around him. But, we know he had his hat in hand when he went beggaring for credit and completed chassis from the Brits.

They only added engines and transmissions, for pete's sake.

But, they raced the cars and did that so very well, it made it possible to retail the street cars, despite the fact that there were many occasions of bait-and-switch on whatever engine spec you might actually get. I suppose no one cared if they got either a 427 or a 428? Don't you believe it! The 428's were considered a serious sign that SA was going downhill and pushing any old FORD stuff.

CS was bailing on instructions from FORD and he could care less to screw with these mothers that wouldn's sell anymore. Why? Perhaps because of the 428 bait and switch, for one thing. Had the right opportunity arrived over the transom, an insurance claim would have solved the inventory problem.

But, as we know, the SC was born out of this adversity. Everybody knew it was a kit of bits, but it was at least interesting and they only had a hundred or so to dump. Not all were SC's, of course. They would push whatever the dealer/buyer would gulp.

These bits were the leftovers from the early attempt to make 100 race cars to safisfy the FIA requirements and homologate the 427 for FIA competition, in the production category and not just in the far more competitive Sports Car (think of Sports Race) that they couldn't possibly win.

[Excaliber]

Quote:
"They only added engines and transmissions, for pete's sake."
End Quote.

I respectfully disagree. Shelby accomplished with his race program something AC would never have been able to do, in my opinion. Shelby took it to the next level. There is a fine line between a good race car and a great race car. The "great" came from Shelby inspiration.

One could speculate that perhaps AC would have eventually found a Ford motor for their car? Perhaps, but it would have been to little to late IF they had even managed.

AC today would be like MG, assuming anyone even KNEW who AC was!

[Trevor Legate]

Hi Whatsa

I shall endeavor to relay the full saga of the lady and her Awfully Big Le Mans Adventure - in a few weeks!

The 'jammed door' story is perfectly true - I got the info from the guy who was in the passenger seat!

Hi Excaliber

IF the Ford V8 had found its way into the AC Ace, it would not have ended up as the 'Cobra' without any doubt and certainly would never had seen the 7-litre!! To develop a car like the Cobra takes money. AC were a very successful engineering company that barely broke even with their cars and would not have been able to access the American dollars that Mr. Shelby dug up, by one means or another. (But within only 6 years years it had all gone very sour...."the more things change, the more they remain the same")

Also, flick through all the back issues of C&D and Road & Trash from 1956 to 1963 and see how 'unknown' and 'unsuccessful' the Ace was in the USA. Loads of articles about the cars and lots of coverage of their SCCA success. Hardly "unknown" in my opinion.

[What'saCobra?]

Hey, slick, we agree.

i would only give SA and CS the greatest of accolades for their race accomplishments, particularly by Dave McDonald and Ken Miles, amongst others.

But, the greatest preponderance of their production was street cars, that were nearly all AC content and design with a brief completion by SA and a few more by a few dealers (another interesting story.)

Sure, what makes the cars interesting is the race history and the romance around those stories, some of which may have actually happened. By the way, the privateer entries won lots more races than SA through the years, but that is more because FORD stopped paying the race bills for the 289 at the end of 1963.

But, then again, i am not sure they were a GREAT race car. They were a GREAT production car that could be modified to race successfully against other production cars because they were superleggera construction (very light) and FORD thin-wall V-8 powered, as modified by West Coast engine demons. For instance, without Webers, the car was much less effective, mostly. 40 HP made that much difference.

Cobras never had a chance against serious race cars. Only in the production car class.

This is not a mute point, particularly regarding the 427's, which were instantly outclassed by Lola t-70's, McLarens, Chaparrals and other great race cars of the day. For instance, no Cobra ever built would have a chance against a 2 liter Sports Race car of the late 60's or any of the Can-Am race cars.

But, they were the greatest Production car of the day (arguably) and therefore won the WMC for production cars, as the 289 Daytona. The 427 won SCCA championships, but little else.

Go drive a historic 2 liter Sports Racer from the late 60s, such as a Chevron B19 or a Lola T212, and compare it to a full race Cobra.... the difference is simply breath-taking.

But, you can't drive the Lola on the street and that's the difference.

Cheers.

[Excaliber]

I just think AC would be an unknown/also ran today in general terms had it not been for the Shelby influence.

Good race car? Great race car? The difference could the preparation of the team at the time of the race! For it's class I would qualify the AC Cobra 289 cars as "great".

I recall (as a young man) how much I really loved to see the Jag XKE's and the Vettes run at a Road Course in Portland Oregon. I also remember the great disappointment in the performance of both of those marques during the competition. My illusions of "awesone performance" were shattered. The Jaguars often had the open differential and would burn the inside tire coming around the tight turns. And yet the Vettes would be hard pressed to catch them in the corners anyway!!! Early to mid 60's.

Well prepared smaller cars were beating both of them on the tight twisty course!

I never got to see an AC run there, bummer!

[What'saCobra?]

Yep, it's mostly semantical.

i was fortunate enough to have run the 289 Cobras starting in 1964. i had been running 'Vettes and got tired of losing the race between the starting line and the first corner. i would try to follow them into the corner and generally lost it trying to follow through to the apex. The 'Vette just didn't have the brakes or the lightness to accelerate out of the corner, either.

So, given that they were production cars and very close to street at that except for the Webers and the lopy cam, they were winners near every race.

i used to carry the empty race sidepipes in the passenger side of the car, strapped to the rollbar brace. i had a minimal seat and cushion for the bim. The trunk had the D-zus detachable race windshield, which SCCA said was OK. The car still got over 15 MPG on the Webers, if i cooled it, so the big tank gave me plenty of range!

At the time, it was the nuts and i thought i was going a zillion miles an hour on the track.

But, they asked a lot of you also. Things would break and spares were a little dicey, though Phil Remmington was a champion helper many times.

It was only years later that i drove my first 2 liter CanAm car and learned what a real race car could do. Talk about easy! And twitchy! Set-up was everything. 525 kg and over 300hp with 14" rims (wide, that is.) After that and a few other serious rides, i knew the Cobra wasn't a real race car, just the quickest of its' production siblings.

But, they are the most marvellous street racers as ever there was. Sure, Austin Healey won more races in its' class and more championships. So did Jaguar and Porche.

You are correct that without Shelby, AC would never have been such a winner, but that completely discounts all their wins before CS ever saw a Chris Craft.

You might have read Trevor's correct comment that Shelby pooh-pooed AC's success and competence after he got his business going. i would not ignore those criticisms, because they are true and pretty unkind from someone who the Hurlocks trusted and believed in. Try fixing a ding in an alloy body if you want to understand how much skill is required to build one of these suckers. Not quite resin, lay-ups and vaccume pumps.

Shelby himself never built anything we can find. Quite unlike Brian Angliss, who can personally fabricate anything on a Cobra and has done so.

CS has three major accomplishments to his everlasting credit, though.

He was a world-class racer, a driver of true excellence and courage and his record proves it.

He has had a marvelous run with the Cobra for the last 40 years of off and on love and money.

And, somewhere, there are several tens of thousands of dead chickens that hate his guts.

Hey, two out of three is better than most of us.

Many of us are still pissoired at his outbursts, which persist even after these very brief 40 years or so. But, then again, like Lady Thatcher, i don't trust either the Ruskies or the Germs either. (and that from a guy who worked in Russia for over 10 years and is still married to a Bavarian lass.)

But, nobody...no body... had the street cred and cashe' of the Cobras. Any kind of Cobra in my opinion. And it is still true today.

[Excaliber]

Well put WhatsaCobra.

[mylesdw]

This thread is one of the best I have read! Some of you guys have really put some effort into your posts and most interesting they are too. I thank you for that.

The story about the lady's car driving at Le Mans reminded me that in the town where I was born there really was a 'little old lady' who drove a Cobra. She was a widow I believe and it had been her husbands car. I remember seeing it parked outside the flats where she lived, it was a 289, in a sort of dark maroon and wire wheels as far as I can remember. There is a long straight running out of town called the Fair Mile and legend has it that she used to blast the car up there once in a while to see if it would reach 100mph by a certain point and if not, she would take it for a service. I think she owned and drove it into her 80's. Just a bit of Cobra trivia...