looking info autokraft mark4

[MIKE HABER]

i recently purchased a 1986 autokraft mark4 6900miles i am trying to find out some reliable information as to what vin#SA9AK3022GA017113 came with the car has the 5lit h.o. motor with fuel injection the owners manuel says its suppossed to have a carb any help you would be greatly appreciated

[1985 CCX]

New owner of MKIV!

I am totally jealous, it is the car I will buy next! I am a huge fan of them and have some literature as well. You need to talk to Rick Muck, he was the importer for the states. PM me and I will get you his phone #. Send me some pictures I would love to see it.

Sleepless till I get AK MKIV................................
Jeff

[Mark IV]

Sleepless...??? Makes me wish I had stuffed a couple of MK IV's away back then!

That "Rick Muck" guy is a real putz!!!

Please understand that Brain Angliss did not adhere to the "rules" and there are BOTH carbed and EFI 1986 cars out there. And to futher confuse the issue, they do NOT follow numeric order. AK 113 may have been built two months after AK 129! Brian was trying to keep up with the US regulations but on average, AC's were one model year (in emissions equip) behind the Mustang that the certification was based on.

I happened to be in the works (and anyone who was in the first Autokraft "factory" at Brooklands knows how loosely that term is used) when the 1985 EPA certification paperwork was faxed from Ann Arbor, celebration followed...a fine dinner at "Les Alouetes" (sp?) in Esher and a well deserved sigh of relief as cars were ready to ship and Brians cash flow would have gotten ugly if he could not have drafted the dealer's banks for payment!

I wish I could remeber everything about that time but I never thought it would be as big a deal as it is now....sorta like those guys who worked in that plant by the airport in Los Angeles.....

Rick

And I do welcome any calls for information about AC Mk IVs, I will be glad to help all that I can.

[mylesdw]

Lucky man Mike. I have always regarded the Autokraft cars as being the only genuine 'continuation' Cobras and very much the end of the line. The current offerings by SA are no better or worse than any other replica.

[1985 CCX]

MKIV,

Regardless of your feelings about Rick, keep in mind I have not met him, he does have a wealth of information. I was looking to buy a car and he was well aware of the first owner, second owner, and the damage incurred in shipping. He also answered a ton of questions I had. Since he did not ask for a consulting fee for the time he spent chatting with me I assumed he was a good guy.

Regardless, MKIV cars are nicely done and very solid. I hope to someday own one in its original form. For now I am happy with my Contemporary Classic.

Greatest of luck with yours,
Jeff

[What'saCobra?]

Jeff,

i certainly agree with your assessment of Muck at this point and i haven't met him either. But, somehow, i'll bet that Rick is looking at these scribbles at the same time as this MKIV guy and he will handle any criticisms directly. Frankly, i think even MKIV will admit Rick is a decent fellow, if they are still talking. i suspect that MKIV's investments have caused Rick a few heart-aches in the past, but that is only a supposition.

Of course, some folks won't listen to good advice, like that from Dr. Muck, and MKIV might just have to learn the hard way.

i also agree with your AC Cobra MKIV views and wish you good luck on your upgrade quest, when the time is right for you. A MKIV can be made quite nice indeed and you are starting with a real aly car by AC Cars Limited. Ask me how i know.

And MKIV's are still somewhat underpriced, in my view, though most need a few nice engine bits to get them brightened up a bit. A FORD stroker 392 crate does a top notch job, along with a stouter tranny. But, a Holley carbed hot 351 is nearly as good. The rear axle is rated for 500'#+, so that can stay, along with the brakes.

Certainly you can keep the 302 and hop that up; but, the higher parts cost of gaining equivalent power will usually more than offset the cost of a replacement 351+ block.

Not to be negative, however, but SAAC treats MKIV's like kit cars, because they are not precious Shelby products. But, we know SAAC has its own views and we have ours.

[ROUSHAC]

"1985 CCX" and "What'saCobra?"

Who do you think "Mark IV" is after reading his profile and looking at his pics????

Cheers!
Dave

[1985 CCX]

Dave,

"What's a Cobra" he is a friend of a friend and therefore a friend.
Mark IV, not sure, however in my opinion the cars are the stars and the people are information about them with the history/facts. Mark IV does have some great looking cars if they are his, that I do not know.

Hope to someday be in the MKIV club,
Jeff

[Mark IV]

If I ever see that "Muck" guy in person, my best friend, Alan Lubinsky and myself will give him the fat lip he deserves.......

Rick

[What'saCobra?]

While you might well have good reason to disassemble Muck's rap, this might not be the best place. Reasonably competent medical attention and proper chemistry would likely help manage your anger enormously.

Actually, it sounds like a lot of chemistry might not be contra-indicated in this case. Your close and hands-on relationship with L notwithstanding, i feel the need to step-up and speak-up for Rick. Well, OK, he lives in a lovely part of the country, even if it snows when you sneeze and raise thereby the local pressure. Many of us wish we had 12 inches, from time to time, though not that often and maybe not that color. i know Rick looks forward to rising for late spring mornings (early June) and shoveling 12 inches of partly cloudy off the driveway.

i will admit your many pictures certainly are impressive. But, frankly, i don't see you competing with Dr. Muck's widely noted familiarity with most things Cobra, up close and personal. Dr. Muck seems the soul of helpfulness and not in the least obnoxious about his half-vast and full-vast knowledge.

You might want to consider him your guardian angel, rather than a competitor. Sort of like your other face, as it were. You would do well to emulate his grace under pressure, if not his full investment history. Even nice guys make mistakes, y'know. Doesn't make him your evil twin, does it?

Ying and Yang, i suppose?

[Old Phart]

Originally Posted by MIKE HABER

i recently purchased a 1986 autokraft mark4 6900miles i am trying to find out some reliable information as to what vin#SA9AK3022GA017113 came with the car has the 5lit h.o. motor with fuel injection the owners manuel says its suppossed to have a carb any help you would be greatly appreciated

Hello there, AC Cobra MKIV fans. I have AC MKIV #185 which has a carburated 5.0 Mustang GT engine and the only MKIV built without the side marker lights. I visually tranformed it to MKIII specs, although with no 427 s.o. Anyway, look at the pictures in my gallery for a better view. By the way, SAAC says the AC MKIV "is not an original Cobra and it is not a replica. It had the right pedigree,...... These cars were very close to original 427 Cobra specifications. It could legitimately be called an AC. Ford granted (Brian) Angliss the right to use the name Cobra on his cars-everywhere except in the U.S. The AC MKIV is an exciting car in it's own right and is arguably as close to being a Cobra as is possible without the Shelby American pedigree." (quoted from the Shelby American World Registry-1997)

There is a 1986 AC MKIV for sale on eblay right now. A great price for an aluminum bodied AC.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

Ying and Yang, i suppose?

Whatsa,
Have you eaten there too? Best General Tso's Chicken anywhere!

Sorry, but it still doesn't change my opinion of the "Muck guy".......if you want confirmation, talk to his wife! She revealed some rather unflattering remarks about him once while we, well, were, uh,....being,..friendly....

And a 5.0 in a MK IV with a decent set of heads, equal length headers and a little lovin' will go fast enough to entertain me! Or go if injection is not to your liking and you'd rather be blown, 6 pounds of boost will make it "shake and bake".

Rather risky defending people you hardly know.....I know this "Muck" chap VERY well and can't say as I like him in the least!

Gotta go, "mother" is calling me....

Rick (Contact me via "Bate's Motel, Hwy 1,....")

[What'saCobra?]

?"SAAC CONCOURS CAR SHOW GUIDELINES"
"DISQUALIFICATION Replicas, or any cars which are intentionally or unintentionally misrepresented (e.g., a replica Cobra, Shelbyized Mustang, etc.) will be disqualified from concours evaluation. Significantly modified cars should enter the popular vote car show."

eg: MKIV's are NOT welcome in the concours. They are relegated to the replica crowd. While it is true that they are not Shelby American cars, neither are GT40's, which are most profusely welcome. The argument given is that Shelby had a great influence on GT40 racing success (which is absolutely true, but nearly none on the design), so they should be included. But, this argument is ignored regarding inclusion of the MKIV, particularly when they insist (as CS certainly insists every event in the past) that CS had huge influence on anything and everything AC did to make nearly all of the original Cobras; but that doesn't make the MKIV welcome as a 'real' Cobra, despite the fact that FORD allowed the use of the name by AC and despite the fact that the car is nearly identical in every way (frequently surpassing significantly the build quality of the original all-AC-built cars.)

Note that the concours rules allow paint runs and orange peel on the original and unrestored painted cars. In fact, they are EXPECTED.
Viz:
"DIVISION 1. Stock/Original cars. ?- The original/restored car is expected to be a higher quality of workmanship than the original/unrestored car. It may, however, have paint runs or orange peel or may show "original-type" overspray on the under-carriage, etc. "Natural-finish" parts should not be **painted the natural color. ?- An original/unrestored car should rate higher on authenticity but lower on workmanship. Paint runs on engine compartment walls, undercarriage overspray, and exterior orange peel are expected."

The gentle reader might try to find such shoddy workmanship on any MKIV with its original paint. Particularly find paint runs or exterior orange peel. Anywhere. No way.

"As far as CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars are concerned, SAAC accepts these cars as genuine Shelby American Cobras (as opposed to "original" Shelby American Cobras). The definition we use to identify an original Cobra is one which was, 1) built between 1961 and 1968, 2) at the direction of and under contract from Carroll Shelby/Shelby American Inc., and 3) sold by Shelby American or one of its franchised dealers. The only difference between original Cobras and CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars is the time frame in which they were built (1). However, all three factors separate Shelby’s current cars from all the rest of the Cobra replicas, AC MK IVs, COB/COX continuation cars, etc. So, to our way of thinking, the current crop of Cobras are genuine but are not original."

So, even todays plastic Shelby's are genuine Cobras, but "Shelby designed" and "FORD designed" coil-springed AC MKIV's are not genuine Cobras.

" The AC MKIV is an exciting car in it's own right and is arguably as close to being a Cobra as is possible without the Shelby American pedigree."

"...as close as possible to being a Cobra..."

Isn't this like being a little pregnant? Well, thank you, Nedley, for allowing us at least to be AC's. And the MKIV's are called Cobras, they admit, before they are shipped into the USA for sale. This legalism is certainly not very sensible or logical or even reasonable for a club demarkation... It is a marketing/licensing gimmick, to avoid torquing CS at the time, who was arguing for the legal rights to all things Cobra (particularly the shape, now recently lost), except for the FORD owned moniker.

This head-in-the-sand perspective of the SAAC isn't more obvious than the final abandonment of the various Dodge products which were also 'influenced' by CS (Charger, Omni GLH, Daytona Z, Lancer, Shadow, Spirit, GLHS, CSX Shadow, CSX-T Shadow, Dakota, CSX-VNT, etc.) Because the Dodges were "Shelby" stuff, they were often shown next to real Genuine Original 427's as "Shelby's." Nothing could be more asinine.

We can guess why they were first included, then excluded and it ain't pretty.

The recent CS CanAm race cars (another misnomer at best) are quite good products and are certainly more deserving of the Shelby aura. But now, the little Dodge hot econoboxes have been dismissed by SAAC. For what reason? Lack of interest? Lack of space? Probably from lack of image, prestige, price and potential market gain. i don't disagree with this decision in the least.

Shelby had significant influence on the Dodge Viper also and i don't see that in attendance. Maybe CS wouldn't like it... or maybe they are just a little too fast? Or maybe their recent Le Mans wins are a little too close to home? You're guess is as good as mine, but i would bet on the CS rejection. If they want him in attendance, Vipers are out of here.

Carroll also 'built' the Series 1, but i don't see that in attendance. Ever ask why?

So, MKIV's are treated like pariahs, at least junior league... not welcome at Concours, placed with the replicas and not considered "Shelby's" (correctly so), 'original Cobras' (also fairly correct, although somewhat arguable regarding 'continuation' status) or 'real' Cobras (not correctly so, IMHO.) But, GT40's are most welcome to the inner sanctum sanctorum. Why? Certainly not because of the many dues paying members owning GT40's. Rather (like Dan), because of prestigious image, not many variations, price, and, did i forget, price?

But, i think MKIV's should be allowed in the concours as real Cobras. No qualifications whatsoever. Along with any and all of the AC continuation cars up to the last few SC clones built in the 90's, including the Wagner MKIII's.

Now, it is worth mentioning that not all of the SAAC senior members completely agree with the current position of MKIV's not being 'real' Cobras. Everyone here knows they are not Shelby Cobras, of course. But, those that have respect for the AC continuations (pre-Mr. Lu) are few and far between and not in sufficient authority and quantify to reverse the current position, as yet.

It might wait until, like many things, CS is no longer sucking air. And Mr. Lu gets run over by a truck and JP takes his marbles. And the membership has a revolution.

i have never been a member, particularly for this and other much earlier reasons. So, i can't 'vote' on this issue within SAAC. (They admit they didn't know squat about Cobras when they first started and they studiously ignored any racer types of the time. They were mostly Mustang pilots.)

We attend various SAAC events from time to time, but usually don't bother to bring a car; as the one time i did, i went home hot under the collar from the rather strong evidence of ignorance that was visibly displayed. It is unfortunate that personalities and authorities often spoil unnecessarily what could be more fun and inclusive. They readily admit any vehicles to the race events, for the cash infusion. So, attendance at an event is something of a mixed bag for a serious replica/MKIV owner... But, plenty of "real" Cobra owners/SAAC members are great fun, knowledgeable and not at all pretentious, contrary to any rumors. Mere membership in the SAAC certainly does not imply agreement with all of the SAAC policies.

Fortunately for SAAC, the greater membership of the various local Cobra groups are not exactly aware of the inner machinations of a few of the SAAC 'leadership' from time to time. They were at their best when they were adversaries to CS, not subservient.

But, SAAC has provided a fine service to the marque and the marketplace. i do buy their publications from time to time and they are very valued and dog-eared on my favored shelf. And there are some individuals in and near the leadership that i think are top notch personalities and backgrounds, so i paint with a somewhat narrow brush here.

As a non-member, it's not up to me. Just my view about the merits of the Shelby 'completely influenced' continuation Cobras from AC. Spoken from both sides of the mouth, it seems to me. "Hell, i designed all those Cobas at AC..." And, they didn't change.

PS: OldPhart, my MKIV Lightweight doesn't have side markers either. A few were assembled without markers; don't know how many, but not many. Like everything Cobra, it all depends. Does your car have the other MKIV 'safety' features?

[Old Phart]

What'saCobra?, thank you for your knowledge of the AC MKIV and sharing it with us. I had no idea of the SAAC Concours Car Show Guidelines as you mentioned and you open up interesting discussion on your thoughts and opinions. I stand corrected on the side marker lights. Maybe I should have said all the MKIV's except the "Lightweights". The original owner of my AC MKIV specifically requested Brian Angliss to not install the side marker lights, add Halibrand knockoff spinners and hood scoop. Yes, my AC has the other safety features of a "standard" MKIV (per the Shelby Registry).

I almost ordered a Series I Lightweight in 1990 because of the S/C style features. I decided to keep what I had and slightly modify it (the changes can be reversed easily).

My girlfriend actually likes riding in my AC MKIV better than my 64 Shelby Cobra because "it's prettier and there's more room". She doesn't care if the CSX is much faster or valuable, she likes the "comfort" value.

[Mark IV]

Perhaps I have been a bit too hard on this "Muck" guy.....actually he isn't too bad when he isn't drinking....and in all fairness, he didn't know that girl was only 15...

Whatsa,

Well said. Why does SAAC no longer care about the Shelby Dodge years? Because Dodge no longer pays RK/KE to care! SAAC used to receive a subsidy to run the "Shelby Dodge Automobile Club" as well as a new Dodge car to drive.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, after all SAAC is a "for profit" orginization, not a member owned non profit club like most marque clubs. And in review they have provided a quailty magazine and other products. I am amused by the quickness of "listed in the registry" stamp they are glad to put upon whatever new venture CS comes up with. Eleanor Mustangs for Gods sake! PULEESE!!!

I have never seen other production vehicles with the quality of paint and finish that MK IV's came from Autokraft with. But then what painter would want to argue with Brian, the former bodyman?

Rick

[What'saCobra?]

Yep.

BA used as his guiding standard, the Aston Martin design, construction detail and workmanship. He would have loved to slip the new FORD all aly stroker 351 in some lightweights for us at a very fair price. Though, mind you, at the peak prices in about 1992 or so, he was getting £99K+ and a few much more than that amount. (And even a few much less. ) That quality standard shows in spades on the MKIV's. He was the best thing that ever happened to AC, subsequent to the wonderful Shelby cars of the sixties. The Hurlock brothers & son worked very hard to produce all those 289/427 cars from 1962 to 1967+. CS hasn't been able to do the same since, despite his derisive laughter at their rather archaic methods and apprenticed skills. But, maybe he can get it straight eventually. i would like to see it happen. i would bet on JP, though.

i have mentioned here previously that there were no tasks in the shop that Brian couldn't do himself, to a top standard. HE set the quality standard by showing people how he wanted it done and he did not suffer fool's chances very sweetly, either. Why should he? He knew the customer wanted and knew they would pay for it crafted as perfect as is humanly possible... like an Aston Martin. He knew price was not the issue. He was not wrong.

His drive for design & mfg perfection would have dove-tailed nicely into Carroll's drive for race-team winning performance, but they were from two different generations, separated by a common language; a builder and a promoter. Brian's insufferance and Carroll's mouth doomed them to antagony. FORD's wishy-washy on-again off-again flip/flops screwed them both. Like GM, FORD is paying today's price for their long-ambivalent customer concerns.

But, Brian's perfectionisms and FORD's wierd flip/flop 302/modular engine availability was perhaps the principal causes of the real AC Cars Limited's demise with the new ACE, plus a viscious and irresponsible local bank manager.

But, as even MKIV will tell you while you are shaving, Dr. Muck, all things come to an end, too frequently a sad end. But, it was a great run, wasn't it? Carroll in the sixties and Brian in the eighties and nineties.

i think there is even more to come. But, Eleanore's? Not for me, thanks.

Today, however, is a new day and there are new alligators to wrestle in the sunlight.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

His drive for design & mfg perfection would have dove-tailed nicely into Carroll's drive for race-team winning performance, but they were from two different generations, separated by a common language; a builder and a promoter. Brian's insufferance and Carroll's mouth doomed them to antagony. FORD's wishy-washy on-again off-again flip/flops screwed them both. Like GM, FORD is paying today's price for their long-ambivalent customer concerns.

Whatsa...true, that.

The "on-again, off-again", affair between Brian and CS was like watching a train wreck, you knew what would happen yet you could not look away!

My favorite BA moment was during dinner with my family a few days after Brian had left our hospitalty at casa de Muck, recieved a phone call from Brian....."do you know where I am calling from he asked?" Knowing I had put him on a plane to L.A. I replied California? Yes, but WHERE in Cali he countered? I dunno..... "I'm sitting at CARROLL SHELBY'S SWIMMING POOL!!!!!" Brian replied! He even bought a sweater for Christine as a gift, I was told.....they made nice....and shortly after they once again fell out of sorts.

There was never a dull moment. I do miss Brain despite any issues we might have had, he was a real "go-getter" and made silk purses out of sows ears and thin air. Lubinsky could only learn from such a man............

That Mark IV guy is a real jerk! No, wait, that Muck guy is all Fu.......

[What'saCobra?]

i think we're being observed.

So do i.

[What'saCobra?]

Have you looked at this site:

http://community.webshots.com/album/27455338FImWfuvVLR

It has lots of contemporary MKIV promotion materials, some of which you may have, but some may be new to you.

Have you read the MKIV write-up by our own dear Nedsel in the SAAC World Registry? Although it is only 4 or 5 pages or so, it is very fair and informative about the MKIV and it's variants. It also has a serial number list, which although somewhat incomplete, is also the only public source other than the original factory registry. Eventually, all the holes will be plugged, i am sure.

Do you have any specific questions we could answer, kick around, punt or otherwise dodge?

[Mark IV]

The original "good book" at AC list all the chassis numbers and has the original order/build sheets for the MK IVs.....sadly, it is now probably stored away or even lost in the numerous "midnight moves" of the aforementioned Mr. L.

The book even holds a VERY RARE picture of the Muck guy, in a TUX, in front of AK 013. I guess Brian was so amused, he had to save it for posterity!

Whatsa, gotta go see your new film, "V for Vendetta".......

Rick