Johnex refund. help?

[doccobra]

To Jim Colman, thank you for stepping in, your comments are welcome and I will address them shortly..

L.H. Here is a thought stop trying to sway the topic of discussion. Comments on Grammar, spelling what is this “English 101” or a discussion on
John not providing customer service, dubious quality parts supplied to customers and the true quality of Johnnex build turnkey cars.

You have never met John, what have you done and what is your experience with John? What is the basis of your opinion? Have you ever even been to John’s shop? If not, how can you make an informed opinion? How many cars have you dealt with, one? If so how can you suggest you have a informed opinion?

I am in my 40’s, have an undergraduate degree in business and an MBA, I work full time as a North American Manager of customer service. I build and sell cars as a hobby now. I have lived in Toronto for over 20 years, I have known John and Johnexx since it’s inception. I have been to John’s shops over the years more times than I can remember and have dealt with over 10 Johnexx cars over those years as well. I have seen many other of the cars John has built and have formed my opinions and issues based on what I have seen, discussions I have had with numerous of Johns clients and my personal direct experiences with John. Can you say the same?

Let me be painfully clear on this I am very easy to deal with, I tell it how I see it, plan, simple and BLUNT.

Since you have cast out a comment about John’s frame allow me to clarify as to prevent you from again tying to cloud the issue. I have not criticized John’s Frame or body, CSC Racing who designed and build Johnnex’s chassis make a GREAT chassis. I purchased John’s kit based on the quality of it. Further I don’t believe there is a truer body shape than John’s another reason I purchased a Johnnex.

Jim, my apologies to you Sir, to address your note:

Now lets get into the issues I have dealt with over the years.
John has always refused to provide information about what components to use to build his cars. Case in point I wonted to build a car and as such I did not purchase a complete car.
In a discussion with John after the purchase he said to me, if people didn’t purchase all the parts from me then forget it, they can figure out what they need on their own, I’m not going to tell them anything.

He meant it Builders are on there own. I did purchase some parts from him and had him do some work.

He welded the chassis mounts onto my rear axle. As I found out later he warped the housing, I spend a month trying to find a shop that could correct the damage. Good job John.
I purchase a set of front upper A arms from him as “New” I installed them on the car and when my car was complete enough to need a alignment I found that John had supplied used and junk parts on the assembly, in particular the pivot rod that mounts to the chassis was garbage I had to purchase the parts and repair John’s ”New” parts.

From this I learned my lesson and I dealt with John differently as a result. From that point on I made sure that wanted and what I received from John was what I needed, not what he said I needed and was new. I inspected parts before I paid for them and before I took them from his shop.

Over the period of my build I met a number of other people who were building or had a finished Johnexx. Seeing that I lived in Toronto there were a number of them around and we all shared similar experience with our builds and dealings with John.

Once my car was complete and I started to show the car things really started to happen. I became the source for information since I had actually completed one of his cars. I was questioned by everyone how did you do this, where do you get that, what parts do you use. Etc. etc. etc.

Holy mackerel, who died and made me the expert on Johnnex cars and who designated me the Jonnexx’s customer support person? Seeing that the people who where building the cars ARE GREAT, I did my best to support there effort. Many a night a spent in someone’s garage helping them get their car sorted out.

I will have to go into details in the next installment

[Seymore Butts]

L.H.

Contrary to your ASSumtions: I dont require the need to state my personal opinions twice as doc cobra. AND before you watch another episode of X-Files and dig up more conspiracy plots - no Im not Rodney logging on as Seymore Butts either.

I should add an apology for my "name" since Seymore Butts has distracted you from the REAL issue that you did not address or should I assume here as you have with my humour that you simply can't comprehend it ?

Since you didnt bother to absorb my situation with Johnex (Like I give a rats ass if you did or not.) - Just look back on Rodneys replys in here - Im sure he's followed this thread and must be chuckling !

I say this because when he reads that he was not the only person that felt stupid when he invested his $$$ in the same SUBSTANDARD PROUCTS as I have along with whoever doc is - Rodney is probably saying: well at least there are more besides myself that got burned.

Please note that its now March 2002 and despite him(Rodney) placing his address etc ...
there has been no POSITIVE replys coming back from him stating that Hey ! problem solved etc etc..

With that in mind L.H. go back to my original post and re-read what my problem was with Johnex.

C'mon arent you going to ask how my "custom built Johnex headers" problem was resolved ?

Here let me quote your dumb ass reply on how you would have resolved it.

"Lets remember that these are kit cars and being a kit car quality of the finished product its up to the person putting it together. If you don't like some of the supplied parts(ie: in my case custom headers) for appearance reasons you can always upgrade and modify."

- so after I purchase abortion craftsmenship and Im not satisfied I can always upgrade right ? what drop another G-note? Sure let me burn down my checkbook with the limitless amount of $$$ in it OR just simply say to the kids this month: we eat only Kraft Dinner.

Johnex refused to do anything to the headers BTW - stating that "this is what the quality is expected of our custom made headers "

What I had requested to be fixed was deemed work that was expected on "high end race cars" (ohh if only I knew what the word oxymoron ment then)

Being naive at that point with "experts" I thought nothing else of it until I upgraded 2 years later to a 351W block. (.40 overbore)

It was then when I had the good fortune of having a former mechanic from Newman-Hass Racing show up when my heads and headers were apart and pointing out on a bore scope the pathetic quality that these headers tubes were in.

Like you typed it LH ! - " all boils down to a competent assembler"

So keep on sticking to your statement right along with your rose colored glasses.

Now having said all this I would like to conclude that I too have nothing to say Wayne Mayburry except that if you cant handle the truth(pronouced with a sneering Jack Nickolson voice) with a little bit of humour from the other side of bad consumer relations then your spending way too much time fooling only yourself.


Love

Seymore Butts

P.S.

Despite hounourably attempting to defend any slick car salesman - BAD news will always travels faster.

P.s.s

Did I mention the price gouging on parts yet ?

Sorry - that last statement was childish so I will give YOU a break and not tell you a story on that since you probably still use the same supplier.

[John McMahon]

To the new memebrs posting on this thread. Please reread the agreement when you signed in here. More information is also available on the following thread:


CONSUMER FORUM GUIDELINES

In additions allegations should be backed up by proof; pictures, documents, etc.


************************************************** **
Club Cobra Agreement

Due to the real time nature of this site, Club Cobra is unable to verify the truth or veracity of any content posted by you on this forum. Therefore, by checking the "I Agree" box below, you agree that the content of your post belongs to you alone and that you are solely responsible and liable for any statements you make or opinions you express in your post. You further agree to hold Club Cobra, its administrators and its members completely free and harmless from any and all liabilities, including the defense thereof, arising from any statements or opinions you post.

Furthermore, by hitting the agree button below, you are indicating the following:

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Thank you.

[Wayne Maybury]

John

Thanks for bringing that point into focus.

For those of you that have stated negative opinions in this thread, I would like to ask a few questions and I will add answers that I think are fair.

Q. Is Johnex perfect? A. No

Q. Does Johnex offer a quality product? A. Yes

Q. Did some of you have problems that have not been addressed to you satisfaction? A. It sure appears so.

Q. Except for Rodney, have you given us an objective statement of what your problems really were? A. Not in my opinion.

Q. Have you told us who you are and/or where you live? A. No, except that doccobra did mention later that he lives in Toronto.

Q. Have you contributed to this site before? A. Except for Rodney, No

Q. Is the Johnex car sub-standard? A. Not in my humble opinion.

Q. Are you stating your objections fairly? A. No

What I am trying to point out is that while you may have some legitimate complaints, it is somewhat difficult for other members to understand where you are coming from when you sign up as a new member than immediately begin to fire off inflammatory remarks.

Earlier in this thread, I clearly stated that I had a couple of minor problems with some parts that were supplied by Johnex and I also stated what was done by John to take care of my difficulties.

doccobra

There is one thing that I cannot understand. You insinuate that the Johnex is a difficult car to assemble since you stated that you helped several people to figure out how to put their cars together. I am not a mechanic but while I have played with cars much of my adult life, this was the very first car I have ever built. I really didn't have any problems assembling the car with the exception of where to place the lower rad bracket since John had forgotten to give me that diagram. I quick call resulted in a fax copy of the required drawing and I was off again. I did have quite a few questions during the build process (which I believe to be normal for a first time builder) but every question was answered to my full satisfaction even when I called on a Saturday (once). I began to work on the car in the late fall of '99 and it was ready for paint in the spring of 2000. I spent many long Saturdays and Sundays working on this car but it was done in 4 or 5 months of spare time.

Just one final point, the company is Johnex, not Johnexx.

Wayne

[Seymore Butts]

Ahh the leagalise jiberish surface !

Hmm lemme see - indisputable and irrefutable evidence is required you ask ?

So what address do I mail both sets of headers too ?

Mind you it would be easier for me just to drive them over since they are bolted to the engine.

Seymore Butts

[JoeLafives]

Seymore:
You are really doing those of us that have not dealt with Johnex, a disservice. Most folks are just looking for the truth so that they can make a reasonably informed purchasing decision.

All that your rant has done is muddy the waters. If you could supply a simple statement. like "I bought a Brand A kit. I had difficulty with the "X" assembly and after "Y" days and "Z" emails, letters, phone calls received no replys or the reply was "...."

Then you would have provided valuable information. That's all we're looking for here.



X and Z are integers greater that zero.

[John McMahon]

Stuff the legalese....just provide the facts.

We've all had bad experiences. My car was in Burtis's shop when he went bankrupt and padlocked the doors. We all have stories to whine about.

Want me to tell you about the $3500 I wasted on custom aluminum panels that didn't fit? I didn't think so.

I find it funny that new members jump in here on their first couple of posts and start whizzing on the electric fence.

[gomersdad]

Seymore Butts and doccobra;
You both seem to be very knowledgable about Cobras, which ones are the best, which ones look the nicest, yet you complain about the product from JohnEx. Did you even LOOK at the car before you bought? Because if you did, you would see what you are getting for your money. First I thought you said ALL JohnEx cars were s**t, then you said that just his turnkeys are - which did you buy? A smart consumer checks references and should know what he is getting into. Also, a smart consumer buys a product based on what best suits him. As in other posts, I believe the JohnEx frame is the best on the market, and the body was also an excellent fit. This after I ACTUALLY looked at the FFR, the Superformance and the Shell Valley - all of which are available built in Canada. Maybe it was the attitude of those trying to return parts that caused the problem....
Signed,
One of John's cronies........

[doccobra]

Once again I have gotten a call from a Johnex owner to help him solve problems. This poor guy made the mistake of purchasing one of John’s “toys for big boys” cars.
These cars were built by John as a Factory Five rip-off. Anyhow this poor guy took this car into the aliment shop only to find out that he needs to cut off the rear chassis suspension mounts and reposition them in order to have the rear end fit on the car properly so it can be aligned.

Good job John!

[doccobra]

Well….For you folks just tuning in I would like to politely ask you to read my previous comments on this topic.

Yes I looked at other products, Factory fives were not being build when I purchased my kit, nor were Super performance being sold in North America. The kits that were being sold were more complete than I wonted. I wonted to build, fabricate and design many of the parts to fit my needs and wants. I wonted to personalize the build to my likes. John’s basic frame and body was local, not bad and it also solved a number of importation problems that could have come up due to Canada Customs dislike of kit cars and kits being imported into Canada. John was the lesser of a number of evils.

Actually what I said was “John is tough to do business with and EVERY car I have seen him build is CRAP!” Then I stated in the following posting “John not providing customer service, dubious quality parts supplied to customers and the true quality of Johnnex built turnkey cars.” If you are going to quote me please do so correctly. I used the term Build and Turnkey to represent completed cars. I used the term Turnkey to create clarity to my comments as a courtesy to the reader. I felt this made my position clearer and should in not be interpreted as a change of position. For those who may have not understood the term “build” or “built” look it up in a dictionary. To assembly something from parts, you know build.

Johnex’s current frame looks significantly different from what he had been selling. The CSC built frame was a major selling point for me as well. Now I wouldn’t purchase one of his current frames. It looks cheap, made for much lighter gauge material and not nearly as robust in appearance as his previous frame.

As far as frame to body fit goes. Every car I have seen is not supported properly. John supplies his bodies riveted along the rocker panel. There is no attachment point ahead of the firewall, nor rear of the interior. The built in mounts on the frame and body DO NOT make contact with one and other, there is usually about a ½ to ¾ inch gap. John relies on the trunk and rear bumper to support the rear of the body. On the front Johnex uses the front opening fiberglass sidepieces, which are usually just riveted in, to support body ahead of the firewall. John also uses to some extent the fiberglass wheel well closures to support the body, these are very poor and tend to offer little or no support. Although John has a lower rad cradle that ties into the frame, it is riveted. This supports the rad, the upper rad support again is riveted to the fiberglass body, but since in is not rigidly attached to the rad and the rad to the lower mount this would not offer any support the body. It also make is tough as hell to get out the rad should work need to be done. You must drill out the rivets and then try to deal with the remounting problems. (I have had first hand experence with that) This is not what I would call an “excellent fit” and Not what I would call well supported.

Don’t presume that I didn’t research the market talk to other customers or know what I was in for with John.

Gomer, everyone has an attitude, look at your own e-mail, lots of attitude. If you paid $1000 for parts that did not fit your car, were poor quality and you had returned to the supplier only to be ignored and not have your $$$ returned, some how I think you would have an attitude as well.

Doc

[Wayne Maybury]

doccobra

Firstly I would like to state that I am not a spokesman for John Leliever or Johnex, I am simply a Johnex customer.

You stated, and I quote "Now I wouldn't purchase one of his current frames. It looks cheap, made for (sic) much lighter gauge material and not nearly as robust in appearance as his previous frame." This statement got me worried, especially the reference to much lighter gauge material because one of the main reasons that I purchased a Johnex was for the frame, which I considered to be very stiff and made to high quality standards.

Since I was going to be in Toronto on business, I decided to drop in to see John and ask him about the lighter material used in his frames and to find out if my frame was made with this lighter material. John categorically denied ever having changed the thickness or quality of the material used to make his frames. He stated that some changes have been made to his frames over the past couple of years to improve the seating position of the occupants, etc. but in no way have these changes reduced the quality or the stiffness of the frame.

I am not a lawyer and I cannot get into the legal mubo gumbo but John went on to tell me the following.

Firstly, John's attorney is well aware of the statements that have been made on this thread by doccobra. John considers many of these statements to be absolutely false. John will not respond to these statements here since it would simply turn into a match of "I said/did, no you didn't, yes I did, etc, etc." In other words it would turn into a pi$$ing match that would prove nothing.

Now for the legal stuff that I don't really understand. John said that he has never sold a car or kit to "doccobra" so he has to assume that this is an alias. Under Canadian law, an individual who makes statements and does not reveal his/her true identity can be sued for slander and something else that I cannot remember right now. Johnex has every intention of pursuing a legal course of action if, and when, doccobra's true identity is established.

doccobra. Take this for what it is worth. Stick to the facts or you may be hearing from John's lawyer one of these days. One more thing. I don't know what you are talking about as far as the rad mounting system goes. The bottom mount is very sturdy and bolted to the frame. The rad is a tight fit (what isn't in a Cobra?) but no rivets have to be drilled to remove or install the radiator.

Wayne Maybury

[bonyhadi]

welll here is another one headed for the lawyers. one thing is obvious, the supplier and client/s can't come to terms. imho it reflects on the supplier. why don't we EVER see such a post or ERA's, DV's, UNIQUE, KIRKHAM's products? seems like the supplier should be working on customer service - customer satisfaction
rather than feeding his lawyers. recall the post started with Rodney, I suppose he will be getting a lawyer letter to. Face it these bulletin boards give lots of people a soap box. I agree nobody has the right to slander or insult an individual. I would strive not to be the bunt of such an attack by producing a first rate product and even better cross communications with all. just my 2 cents.

[Mr.Fixit]

I've had the displeasure of working on afew of the "turnkey minus" cars put together by Johnex in an attempt to compete with SPF. The car uses expanding aerosol spray foam as a major structural joining compound. The foot box for the driver is patched together wth cardboard in the region where they notched it out to clear the headers. They just glue aluminized heat barrier over the whole engine bay and cover it all up. The rollbar is not centered with the driver, but rather offset. The headers are complete crap.. Thin gauge metal, bad welds, warped flanges, crimping marks from where they clamped the pipes in a muffler shop pipe bender, and no collector gaskets supplied to match their custom sidepipe flanges. The positive battery cable is constucted into the car: disappearing into the expanding foam and reappearing in the engine bay. Not at all removable. You could see the weave of the fiberglass printing through the paint. No travel limiters on the rear suspension on the EQ so the rear halfshafts are allowed to droop lower than the point where they start to bind up. Sidepipes that have removable tips, that always loosen themselves up because you cannot tighten the forward junction of the threaded rod which holds it all together, and you must pack with fiberglass yourself. The gas pedal requires a custom added pedal stop or changing the pedal ratio in order to make it not have slack at the first part of travel (the pedal has more travel than holley or most other carbs, so it's slack up front, or over-tension at full throttle). The fan circuit requires an additional diode to prevent it feeding current back to the ignition circuit (allowing the car to keep running) after turning the key off. They need a huge stack of shims on the front cross shaft to get them to align correctly. They can't run very sizable tires up front or out back comparitively to other brands. The hood prop rod is positioned 2" above the primary pipes of the headers so it's always too hot to touch. I could keep going on like this, but you all get my inpression of the Johnex "turnkey minus" cars built at John's shop by his people.

[L.H.]

Mr.fixit since you have given up knocking West Coast product's is Johnex your new crusade,I see HOC is your former email address when you were known
as areoace were you a supposed mechanic there and that's how you came to know "everything".All of these car's are kit cars and all have their own set of problem's ,sometime's they are better sorted out by their owner's than other's.But I for one am getting sick and tired of hearing from expert's like you that do nothing but complain about west coast ,johnex or whoever else your an expert on.

[the doc again]

LH Who are you, and why are you so cirtical of those of us who have an opinion.

[the doc again]

Wow, Wayne something you said caught my attention, so I had a look at John’s website. Well, wasn’t I shocked!

John sells 3 different frames, his “highend” regular and Can AM, (Factory Five) frame

Here is the situation… While John was “closed to the public” and selling cars only to House of Cobra’s I had a friend drop by Johnex’s shop. The shop had what John called his “New high end” chassis significantly different from his previous chassis and was built more along the lines of a “space frame” type of design, It accommodated only IRS systems and John had talked about how he spent all kinds of $$ to have this frame designed.

I must apologize to all reading this string as my “Cheap” frame comment was directed at what John had represented as his “high end frame”.

Wayne to your address your comments:
I knew if a waited long enough that John would show his true colors to you folks, well here is John in all his glory. This is John to a “T” he will not address the issues he will hide, complain, use other people and never address the issue. Wayne why are you responding for John? What do you owe him to post a Vail threat of legal action on John’s behalf? He is using you Wayne to be his Cronie. Think of it this way if John respond he could not deny anything, by using Wayne here, if challenged he can say that he said nothing of the sort. Wayne you have put your self in the middle, acted on your own and have been used by John for his convenience. Got to love John the Teflon man.

[the doc again]

Let’s do some comparison here and let’s get a perspective on things.

According to John, I can’t provide a description’s of the negative things I have dealt with a seen on Johnex’s cars because John will “GET ME” even thought these are what I have seen and have had to deal with.

John on the other had can say anything positive about his cars to a customer about his product for example: that his chassis is one of the stiffest in the industry, That’s OK

Now let’s say I had signed on under the same circumstances and that I was praising John’s product. Would I have seen the same responses from Club Cobra,? John? Others challenging my postion…..probably not!

Let’s be fair here from this example, OK! lets see the data on the frame rigidity, how has he established this? Has he tested other frames? Has he had the other chassis checked by P. Engineers? What is the basis of a statement?

There should be no less burden of proof on any positive comments!

With that said here is my advise:

Don’t take my word of any of this look for yourself make your own judgement.
Forget about the frame without a body that he shows, yes the frame looks nice but it’s the details that he doesn’t show that matter even more.

Look at his completed cars at shows. Look under the car, what’s that you cant see under it, humm maybe John has something to hide? Ok look in the rear wheel wells look forward to see if the well has been filled with foam and painted. Look to see the fit and finish of the trunk, look to see the fit and finish of the interior. Look to see if the wiring harness it properly tied down. Look to see if the radiator has been riveted down and as such cannot be removed without drilling, look to see if the front of the car body is properly supported, look in the front of the rad opening to see if the side fiberglass pieces are fit and attached properly, is it neat and proper or just pop riveted in?, Look at the fiberglass pieces that close of the inner front inner wheel well. Same comments apply, Look at the headers, what’s that they are rapped, humm what’s under that I wonder? What is hidden under all the heat duct aluminized material on the fire wall. Which buy the way is just housing heat duct material and provide literally Zero heat protection! Look around the foot boxes they will be filled with window foam to seal the engine from the drivers compartment. John couldn’t be bothered to build a proper firewall. Humm a firewall to protect the driver in case there is a fire under the hood of the car? Seems like a good idea to me?

Check under the interior is it stuck to foam, yup. OPEN YOUR EYE’S and look for the details of the car. Then look at the other cars, you too will see the difference. Look at how the doors fit, check the strength of the door hinges. How is the body fastened to the frame, pop riveted to along the rocker panel. Is the body properly support elsewhere? Not on the ones I have seen. How are the side pipes hung under the car? How is the emergency brake system set up. Clean effective and safe? Compare Johnex built cars against other kits compare them against the guys who have personally built a Johnex….
Day and night difference

BUYER BEWARE!!

[Mr.Fixit]

L.H.

Please point out the innaccuracies of my statement about Johnex turn key minus cars built at their shop. I know it's hard to believe, but after working on many brands of "cobras" I don't think that they're all great, some have their problems.

[stickanddice]

As a potential Cobra buyer, I've been doing research in purchasing a replica for quite some time; too long if you ask me...but let's just say it hasnt' been easy convincing the wife And given how I show her this forum so that she can see how supportive and quality driven the builders are, you can rest assured I won't show her this thread! Needless to say, irrespective of the specific issues, I doubt anyone who reads this thread is going to purchase a Johnex. I have read previous posts in which a customer turns to the forum as a last ditch effort to get help, either from their own admitted ineptitude or something as simple as a defective part. In most cases, other owners from the same maker or the maker himself will jump in to aid the customer in need. Notably, Kirkham provides very supportive and lengthy replies to clear anything up. Now if they can just get their prices down a tad...

I found Johnex's reply early in this thread to be extremely defensive and discouraging from a potential customer prespective. As for the legalities, this is a forum after all. You hear the good the bad and the really, really, ugly. If these are indeed customers who have had poor experiences, then let them voice them. I for one am very interested. If these cases are just aberrations to an otherwise well run, company with high quality standards, then let the other Johnex owners jump in and stand up for their builder.

No matter what comes of this... The one crucial thing I've learned from this unpleasant yet helpful thread is that Johnex will not help you out when you need it.

One last item I have to add. Just because somebody works in the high line car industry does not guarantee superior service. My room mate in college had a Toyota Camry, and the service he got was stellar. I once took one of my father's Ferraris to get serviced (they usually come in trailers to pick up the vehicle, but it game me an excuse to drive it ) and it took nearly three months worth of "oh, that part will be in the next couple of days" before I got father's car back. He thought I wrecked it and was hiding the evidence !

[fastimes]

He is no longer in business