Calling the integrity of Bill Connelly and Upstate Super Replicars into question

[mrmustang]

In June of 2005 I facilitated a deal for a supposedly decent 1985 Mustang GT road race car between Bill Connelly and my friend Mark H here in NJ. At the time Bill C, sent me a long list of what the car had done to it and what was included in the sale of the car (and the car itself in great detail). It turns out that the car is not all that Bill C. described and repeated calls, emails, and now a certified letter to him have so far gone unanswered. I am not badmouthing Bill C. just yet, but I am placing a warning notice to any and all who may be doing business with him at this time to be very careful.

I remain vigilant that perhaps he has overlooked the correspondence and even the PM's sent from the corvette forum where he now seems to reside on a semi daily basis. Again this is a general warning to the members of Club Cobra and any other forum where Bill C. may be doing business. Will await his response in some way shape or form before I set forth in great detail just what has transpired and either his willingness to make things right, or not. They say you can tell the integrity and morals of a man by his actions, well, I await Bill C's response and I guess we'll go from there.


Sincerely,

Bill S.


edit to remove double signature

[RedBarchetta]

This happened 16 months ago...Why the delay in calling the guy out? Just curious.

-Dean

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

This happened 16 months ago...Why the delay in calling the guy out? Just curious.

-Dean

Mark (a car guy but not a race parts expert) only recently discovered the irregularities when he took the car in to a race shop to have some work performed before heading out to the track for whatI believe was his first trip since getting the car(family, work, etc I am sure was a part of his dealy at getting on the track with the car). The parts listed in the description where not on the car. I can see maybe where one item could have been changed along the way and the description not updated, but not to the extent of what was found to be stock where HD Motorsports parts were supposed to be.


Sincerely,

Bill S.

[RedBarchetta]

Wow, Bill. I feel bad for this Mark guy, but in all honesty he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell to gain restitution this deep in the campaign. Unless he has a documented Bill of Sale that lists ALL the attributes of what came on the car (thus, an audit trail of the missing parts), then he has no case. This is especially true if he bought the car unseen and it was purchased "as is."

I'm not questioning that you didn't do a thorough job giving the car the once over...I have no doubt that what you saw wasn't what Mark was delivered. But 16 months time raises a lot of questions in the court of public opinion, and I'm sure a judge and/or jury will see it the same way.

-Dean

[mrmustang]

Dean,

He has every bit of correspondence from Bill C., myself to Bill C, and pass through sent to both, most done via email. 16 months is nothing when dealing with a "toy", I know guys who have bought cars and held on to them in remote locations (or even in the back of their garages) for 10+ years before getting around to working on them. We'll see what transpires over the course of the next few days. As for what I saw for the brief time the car was in my backyard, was mostly dirt covered and wet and I could not tell you what parts were what and had to go by what the description stated as well. I am hoping that Bill C. will step up to the plate and offer some form of restitution to "make things right"!

Bill S.

[RedBarchetta]

Okay, I understand. But who is to say that the parts in question were not "lifted" one night while the car sat idle (either at his place or yours)? Again, it will come down to seller's word vs. buyer's word and if it becomes a litigation event, you will still need to show proof that the car was in secured storage from the point it was purchased to the point it was fully received by the buyer, as well as during the time of storage until the missing parts were discovered. This even applies to "internal engine" components, as you'd have to show proof that the motor wasn't tampered with at any point along that time line.

I'm not an attorney, but I do work with legal documents a lot and I understand how the law works (unfortunately, not as well as a Smith & Wesson). And I also realize that you're publicly asking another guy to do the right thing and right the wrong. Unfortunately, in our country that can be misconstrued as slander and, the next thing you know, YOU end up being the target of a defamation of character law suit.

-Dean

[Dinobyte]

The time that has lapsed may well void any documented agreement of what was on the car. The new owner may want to check into the laws of his state to find out what the statute of limitation is for someone who fails to act on a claim.

Additonally, the Bill of Sale is the final document between the parties. Unless the BOS has a detailed list of the parts which were to be included, it may be difficult to claim otherwise outside of a small claims judge taking pity.

Another problem which was brought up before is the chain of possession. What was on the car when it was turned over to you, then turned over to the customer may be a sticking point and area of contention. If he claims that the parts in question were on the car when he turned it over to you, you might be the one under the microscope.

[ROUSHAC]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

Okay, I understand. But who is to say that the parts in question were not "lifted" one night while the car sat idle (either at his place or yours)? Again, it will come down to seller's word vs. buyer's word and if it becomes a litigation event, you will still need to show proof that the car was in secured storage from the point it was purchased to the point it was fully received by the buyer, as well as during the time of storage until the missing parts were discovered. This even applies to "internal engine" components, as you'd have to show proof that the motor wasn't tampered with at any point along that time line.

I'm not an attorney, but I do work with legal documents a lot and I understand how the law works (unfortunately, not as well as a Smith & Wesson). And I also realize that you're publicly asking another guy to do the right thing and right the wrong. Unfortunately, in our country that can be misconstrued as slander and, the next thing you know, YOU end up being the target of a defamation of character law suit.

-Dean

Dean,

I agree with you regarding the "legal" standing on this issue. I also think that most everyone does seem to be a bit too "sue crazy" these days.

It seems to me that Bill S. is just trying to help right a wrong as he sees it without anyone resorting to legal action at this point. I'd surely like to hear what Bill M. has to say on the subject.

It sure would have been nice if this thing could have been settled as gentlemen used to in the "good old days" with some rational discussion between all parties before it got to this point.

Dave

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

Okay, I understand. But who is to say that the parts in question were not "lifted" one night while the car sat idle (either at his place or yours)?
-Dean

That would be a neat trick with the suspension and brake components that were supposed to be Motorsport items and turned out to be stock originals. Could you imagine someone trying to swap out a set of supposedly HD Ford Motorsport front lower control arms and replace them with the stock unit

Bill S.

[RNT]

It's not a very good idea, IMO, to libel someone's reputation or to imply dishonesty on a public forum, especially if the person is known. One side of a story does not reveal all the facts.

[mrmustang]

Believe me I was extremely careful to make sure I had not libeled or slandered anyone when I started this thread. I for one have done business with Bill C. in the past when he was a Contemporary dealer (that is the only reason why I built the web page and assisted him in marketing his car), know others that have in the past as well. I have also defended him from others in the past as have several members here. However, in this particular case everything (and I do mean everything) is documented. Again, I am giving Bill C. the chance to step up to the plate and right a wrong. We are not talking a large sum of money here, but it is the principal of the thing that has me so wound up. The ball is in his court and once again I am hoping that he steps up to the plate to do the right thing. If not, it will be his own actions will show if he is a man of integrity, someone that others will want to do business with in his future, or not. As usual, only time will tell.


Bill S.

[kris-kincaid]

What exactly did you do to facilitate this deal? I always assumed you look over the cars you sell because its your name being associated with the sale. I think thats why people buy from you, you're a known expert and they trust you.

[mrmustang]

In this case the 85 Mustang GT race car was dropped off in my backyard with a description and a request to assist in marketing the car by building the web page and putting the car up on Ebay (which I have still not been paid for the ebay fees to this date) as Bill C. did not have an account to do so at that time (or so I was told). I took pictures, built the web site, and listed the car on Ebay based on the detailed description that Bill C. supplied me. This was done as a friend and not as a business transaction. Since there were disclosures about the engine knock included (this is not where the issue is on this transaction), I took everything else listed at face value. The car did not meet reserve on Ebay and I made mention of the car to a friend at an njreplicar.org club meeting, found that Mark was interested and told him to come see the car as I wanted it out of my backyard one way or the other within the next two weeks. He came up after reviewing the description that Bill C. emailed me to him and to Mark directly and said "sold". Now we are back to the beginning of our dilemma as some of the parts that were supposed to be on the car are now found to not be there. Again all I did was bring two friends together, nothing more, nothing less. However, since I was involved, I want to get both parties to "make things right" by one another. A little effort on Bill C's part will go a long way to straightening things out, but again at this time phone, email, and PM's have gone unanswered and ignored, which makes me call his integrity into question. If I have to, even though I had no financial interest in this deal, I will try and make things right by Mark in some way shape or form. Why, simple, because he is my friend., as I thought Bill C. was as well.


Bill S.

[Cracker]

Bill - so you had this car in your possession (backyard) but failed to verify that components listed were actually ON the car. Then after your spin this car off to a friend he finds out 16 months later that items are not as represented.

I share the opinion of whoever said "a snowballs chance in..." thought. This is unfortunate for your "friend" as it really sucks to NOT get what you paid for. There is no chance that after 16 months have passed that any legal action would be successful for a number of reasons, for you but for Bill C. there might be some outs.

Call it what you may but to me this most definitely, even to date a "libel" by definition. From where I sit, Bill C. has grounds for a suit against YOU - tables do turn when stupid decisions are acted out. You may not WANT Bill C. to see any of this - to the point of "RNT".

[mrmustang]

Cracker,
Let Bill C. chime in as he is the one who has been contacted and has choosen to blow off a chance to set the record straight. As for him coming after me with a suit, let him as everything I stated is documented fact not just a matter of one persons opinion vs another.

Bill S.

[Cracker]

Fair enough - either way it's an unfortunate scenario.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Fair enough - either way it's an unfortunate scenario.

I could not agree with you more

[Toby]

mr.mustang,

This is indeed an unfortunate situation. However, there is a lesson to be learned here. Friends, don't sell friends cars to friends without this kind of stuff coming back to bite everyone. I can see your position, but the sticking point to me would be you.

Your moniker IS mr.mustang for Pete's sake, and you didn't investigate this deal to protect all friendships, yet the item was in your yard and you brokered the deal! That is not friendly.

Toby

[mrmustang]

Toby,

The car was in my backyard, sitting in the grass and covered with a HD car cover while it rained on and off for days. By the time I got home (after leaving at 6:15am) at night it was dark, weekends were a blur as I dealt with my wife, son, and 70+ year old parents moving from 3 blocks away to Florida. Cobra sitting in my packed 10X20 1 car garage (with 7 foot ceiling height) so putting it in there was not an option. Not street legal or insured so taking it elsewhere to review the car was not an option. I took Bill C. at his word as there was no reason to doubt him. He gave me the details and I turned it into html. But you are right and it will be an extremely rare occasion where I ever help out another friend selling a vehicle ever again. Shame that something like this has to come to light and that Mark and I are now jaded by the whole experience. Again, Bill C. has yet to respond, but I do hope that he does and does so in a responsible manner so that we can all put this ugly experience behind us in a positive way.

Bill S.

[RACER X #99]

Bill, You should never have gotten involved with that car. When I got out of it at WGI there was no more water in it and it almost blowed up on me. It handled pretty good and I almost bought it but after the test drive I knew the moder was NG. I guess Connelly figured you would unload it for him and he would be off the hook. I guess he was right.