About to start brake upgrade project

767Jockey · #1 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 06:46 PM

I'm about to start a brake upgrade project on my Contemporary Jag based front end. I had adapters made by Mickmate to adapt Wilwood calipers to replace the poor performing Jag front brake calipers. Do any of you internet wizzes know how to search the web properly to find the best price on a pair of Wilwood Dynalite WIL120-4993 Billet Dynalite calipers? What pads do you guys recommend I use on these? It'll be the stock non vented Jag series I rotors.

Also, I'll be replacing all of my brake lines. Do I use steel or stainless lines? I've heard that stainless is much tougher to flare - is that true? What diameter line do I need, and do I single or double flare? The whole system, including masters will be all new with the exception of the rear Series II Jag calipers, so the lines and flare type will eventually have to mate up to those calipers, whatever size line and type of flare they use. Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced but well made flaring tool that works well? I'd rather spend a bit more on a tool that makes the job better and easier than struggle with a cheap tool It's been many many years since I flared and ran brake lines, so any advice in addition to the above questions is more than welcome.

bmwdb10 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 07:40 PM

Hey Doug,

Try clicking on this link for your calipers.

http://65.109.249.14/mm5/merchant.mvc?

It will take you directly to the buy page for that part #. Or click on HOME to shop for others.

Not sure about the stainless lines and if there is an advantage. I do know that standard line must be double flared in a brake line application. You can order a flare tool kit with the double die from any NAPA store. I think they have the Belden or Beldon Tool line if I am not mistaken. You can also go to www.snapon.com and order from them. It is an art to do a double flare, be sure you practice some before you do the final on a bent line.

Good luck!

Hey, when are you coming up?

bmwdb10 · #3 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 07:46 PM

Doug,

Just tried the link. Doesn't work quite right. On the page that appears, type the Wilwood part # in the search block, it will take you to the page I mentioned.

767Jockey · #4 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 09:07 PM

Thanks for the info, Dave, I hope to stop up soon - being away from home as much as I am it's tough to find time to head out the door again when I should be home. I'll make it up there soon. I still need lots of info heading into this brake thing. Measuring and drilling the body for the rollbar and fitting the new floor mounted pedal assembly are the last big jobs before I pop the body off the frame and strip the frame down. From that point on it's all reassembly. To be honest, as much as I thought I'd like this project, I've about had my fill of cleaning and disassembly. I really look forward to starting to put it all together. Once I have the body off, I'm not planning on pulling the whole rear suspension out, but at least I can get to it all to clean and detail it, and pull the rear brakes and redo all of that with new calipers, pads, lines, and rearrange the E brake calipers to the proper sides so the E brake lever can be moved from where it is now on the driver side to the proper location on the passenger side. I can't wait to get this thing done and running. Working alone it takes forever and a day. I'll get there. Jeff keeps telling me to pace myself - I'm trying.......

bmwdb10 · #5 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 06:53 AM

Hang in there Doug! I was there once with my last car. Took forever and was close to giving up. But the end result and the feat of doing the restoration yourself will be of very fond memories. Keep in touch with us here and with the CCX group....We will help as much as we can if nothing more than motivation. Someday soon you will be cruising! And there aint nothin' like a cruising in a Cobra!

mickmate · #6 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 07:23 AM

Hi Doug, those calipers are available places like http://www.pitstopusa.com/detail.aspx?ID=1298 There was a good article on plumbing recently in Hot Rod. I believe you need double flare on brake lines and although harder to work with they recommended seamless SS. With the hot rods we're building we've been using off the shelf steel lines. They are available in any length and you just do the fun arty farty part of bending and fitting them. I think they're aluminised or Cad plated or something anyways, best part is ends are already done. I have some bending tools if you want to borrow them but there is a type that is handy I'd like to find. It has a plier type handle and three grooved wheels. Two on one handle and one on the other. You just put the tube through and squeeze the handles as much as you want it bent. I'll post a few good notes on roll bar install under another thread and have Jeff help us through that install procedure. Sounds like good progress bud keep after it!

767Jockey · #7 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 03:05 PM

Nick,
Let me know if you find out what that bending tool is called or where to get it. I'm starting the rollbar install now, the calipers were ordered this morning.
Doug

1985 CCX · #8 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 06:21 PM

This is my #1 project for this year!
Based on XKE Jag series I brake upgarde testing in magazine reporting 60% improvement with 3000lb + car, stopping in the Cobra should become more F1 versus horse and buggy. The Dunlop calipers served their function in 60's but an upgrade mandatory in this century.

Remember to upgrade to braided brake hoses, gives a firm feel and less sponge.

Nick, where are my adapter plates???????????

mickmate · #9 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 08:33 PM

http://www.toolsource.com/tubing-ben...l-p-71133.html Hey Jeff, I'm on it......

rdorman · #10 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 06:34 AM

I hope you have really done your homework. This sort of thing scares me. You can't just change to 'better' parts and expect better results. In fact, just the opposite can occur. Have we talked?

767Jockey · #11 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdorman

I hope you have really done your homework. This sort of thing scares me. You can't just change to 'better' parts and expect better results. In fact, just the opposite can occur. Have we talked?

This is a very commonly done upgrade to CCX cars. Why are you scared? Why would we need to talk? Have you done this upgrade before?

rdorman · #12 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 06:55 AM

If what you are telling me is that this exact change has been done before and properly designed and tested, then I will sleep easier!

767Jockey · #13 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdorman

If what you are telling me is that this exact change has been done before and properly designed and tested, then I will sleep easier!

That's exactly what I'm telling you. Sleep well!

rdorman · #14 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 08:01 AM

Phew! In that case....... seemless steel lines are fine. The precut, pre flaired lines work well and save time. Any good tubing bender works well. Spend a few bucks here or borrow a good one. Assuming the brake system is naturally balanced, pic a high CF pad intended for your use. EBC makes some nice pads for the rear (I run them) and the red pad is a decent compromise. From there, pick some similar CF wilwood pads. They have some new ones out that I have yet to research but Wilwood does a good job in giving a lot of details on their pads. The big stores such as Summit and Jegs are hard to beat price wise but there is always something to say for buying from the local bricks and mortar stores. Tech support will be from wilwood any ways. If you are prepared to give me your entire specs and some other info, I can make more specific pad recomendations. Either way, bed them well and spend time getting the bias just right.

767Jockey · #15 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 08:38 AM

This project was developed by the Jaguar Club of North America. Here's the link.....

http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0021.html

I've talked to Wilwood about it extensively as well. In addition to the info in the article, I'm also having a floor mounted pedal assembly custom made by Mickmate with two separate brake masters and a balance bar. Masters will be sized by the techs at Wilwood. Rear calipers will have hard metal lines plumbed right into the calipers, the old rubber brake hoses in the front will be replaced by new steel braided lines. All mounting hardware will be replaced with new Grade 8 hardware. Wilwood doesn't make the PolyMatrix D pads specified in the article anymore - the Wilwood tech specified the replacement for them, part # WIL150-8850K, which is their BP-10 compound. The remaining question I need to get answered is what pads to run in the rears - I have inboard Jag Series II calipers and brake system. I called Unique Motorcars and they said that Jag Series II is what they run in the rear of their cars as well, so I presume that's what you have as I see you have a Unique. They said the Series II is actually not a bad system and they are satisfied with the performance they get from the equipment back there. What pads do you run in the rear, do you have part number and place to buy? I asked Wilwood about what to run in the back and they're about totally clueless on anything having to do with Jaguar. I figure I'll get the rear pad compound as close to the new front pads as I can, and then make up whatever small differences I may have with the balance bar. The end result has got to be light years ahead of what I have now, which is a single tandem master with archaic Series I Jag single piston Dunlop calipers in the front, which have an even smaller pad surface area than the Series II's in the rear. The Series I calipers are cast iron with aluminum bolt in cylinders and pistons. They weigh (not even joking here) almost 10 pounds each! Jeff G., who is about to do this swap as well, found an article about this very swap but in a Jag XKE, which of course is heavier and with much less tire than the Cobra's we drive. The 60 - zero braking distance went from somewhere near 200 feet to almost 100 feet. The results were astounding. At least in the Unique you have a better front braking system to begin with. There very early CCX cars are dealing with 1962 technology in the front. This should bring the technology at least into the 80's.

I've researched this as carefully as I can, and sought out as much qualified advice as I can find. All in all it seems like a no brainer, all at a completed cost of about $500.00. Any additional input ANYONE may have is appreciated.
Doug

rdorman · #16 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 08:52 AM

I bought the EBC red pads from Tire Rack. Don't recall the part number though. The BP10 looks like a nice pad. I had a girling/gm setup on the front of my car when I bought it as well. A brake system for a jag is completely different then a brake system for a cobra in so far as balance and many other requirements. While I really enjoy most of wilwood products, watch out for a general recomendation from them on master cylinder size. There is a LOT of information required to pick the 'right' one and early on, I found that they 'generalized' size recommendations and what they recommended was way off of what worked best for me. Of course, they don't cost a fortune and you can always change them up once you begin to test the system.

Shelboss · #17 (**permalink**) 10-19-2007, 08:39 PM

Hi Doug, you can just put the Dunlop front pistons in the rear calipers and stay with series 1 mounting. The Wilwood increase in piston area is approximately the same increase using the front pistons in the rear. On the SS tubing, it is harder to flare, but bends fine. I use a Garage-Pro flaring tool that I bought from JC Whitney, it's a single flare tool that clamps the tubing really well. The double flare dowels from any kit can be used with this tool to form a bubble or double flare. Then there is AN, a system created by the Army/Navy for its durability and ability to be loosened and tightened multiple times. This system uses a 37 degree single flare backed by a tube fitting that takes all the stress. All aircraft and many Hot Rods use this system. It is a 37 degree flare, I recommend the Rol-Air Flaring tool #507-FB available from Aircraft Spruce. I am using this system along with SS tubing for all my brake and fuel hard lines. All the fittings are compatible with the AN fleible SS lines. Good luck,
Art Nigro

767Jockey · #18 (**permalink**) 10-19-2007, 10:45 PM

Thanks for the info, Art. I can't swap the front pistons into the back units, as my current rear units are actually series II, which don't have the removable piston assemblies. The good news is, according to some knowledgeable Jag folks I talked with, the Series II brakes are a major step forward from the Series I, even with the front pistons mounted in the rear.

Shelboss · #19 (**permalink**) 10-22-2007, 07:29 AM

Yes if you have Series II in back now by all means stick with them! They are aluminum and much cheaper to get parts for or rebuild, good deal!

767Jockey · #20 (**permalink**) 10-23-2007, 09:16 PM

OK, guys - the calipers, brackets, etc are all here. I'd like to go with stainless lines, but I hear that flaring stainless is a real pain in the _____ , so I guess I'll stick with standard brake line. What size do you guys think I should get, and what flare angle is used on the Jaguar stuff in the rear, and on the new Wilwood calipers? Where can I go to but new "T" fittings and stuff for the brake lines? Mine are brass but kind of old and cruddy looking. Anything else you guys can think of?