Bellhousing

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by kgs365

isnt this all moot if you have to cut the bottom off anyways?...its never going to be SFI certified...In my build it specifically calls for triming the bottom off!...its not going to matter SFI or non SFI

I think Jason's point is more towards the need for "complete and full disclosure" when it comes to a product that is aimed at the safety of life and limb, and, it's a fair question as to whether QT has really done that. FWIW, here is what you have to do in an ERA with a Lakewood. Clearly, mine would not get certified.

[D-CEL]

Brent,
Several points:
1) Clearly this design is incapable of containing an explosion at half the SFI required energy. The video is proof of that.
2) Based on my conversations with the QT rep and SFI, it appears that this design has never been subjected to the SFI testing and as such their advertising is misleading at best, deceptive at worst.
3) Bossofu took QuickTime’s advertising at face value, fortunately it only cost him a stack of money.

I completely agree with you as to where the fault rests in this failure. Bossofu freely admits the blame is his and his alone.
However,
His decision to purchase this model was based if not completely, in MAJOR part on the information stated in QT’s web site and from resellers that so loudly tout it. You yourself have gone on record many times, on this forum waving the QT company banner, following lock and step. Promoting and selling the “better” Quicktime product. You go so far as to make fun of the “pretty sticker” that assures the purchaser of compliance. QuickTime sold you the line that the two different designs are the same and you in turn sold the people who trusted you.
What should have been a easy fix and a chance to improve the product, now looks like blatantly false advertising followed by feeble attempts to shift blame away from a “less-than 6.1” design.
How many people have purchased this design believing that it offers the same level of protection as the 6.1 certed part#? What is the culpability of the manufacturer if an injury or death occurs?

If this discussion helps someone make an informed decision based on truthful information and the knowledge of what can happen, than it was worth all the effort.


Kgs365
Some will argue that removing 3 or 4 of the lower containment bolts (to improve ground clearance) while negatively affecting the strength, is not enough to cause a containment failure as there are still 4-6 large fasteners below the mid line, bolting the housing directly to the block plate.

I for one would love to see that tested!


Jason

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

Some will argue that removing 3 or 4 of the lower containment bolts (to improve ground clearance) while negatively affecting the strength, is not enough to cause a containment failure as there are still 4-6 large fasteners below the mid line, bolting the housing directly to the block plate.

I for one would love to see that tested!

Yes, after trimming the Lakewood, kgs365 would still have six 1/2 - 13 x 1" Grade 8 Bolts below the block line, as you can see from my photo.

[blykins]

If you would like to do a little more detective work, I would suggest asking Ross McCombs (the designer of all the bellhousings) to comment publically. Personally, I wouldn't put much stock in any other testimonies, especially from someone from a totally different company, who before 4-5 months ago, had never seen a Quicktime bellhousing before. Whether or not he has seen SFI testing is really not part of the equation.

Again, I'm taking Ross' public confessions (over emails and public forums) at face value. I have no other reason to.

To say that an SFI 6.1 bellhousing would not have failed is pure speculation, with no proof to back it up.

Now, I would call back and make the Q/T guy clarify: If it doesn't have the lower containment bolts, are you saying that it wouldn't pass testing period, or it wouldn't be approved for SFI 6.1 rules...?

I also would watch how you involve my name and company in this. Even if you don't have intentions of coming across as, "Brent is in kahuts with Quicktime and he's helping spread this propaganda lie...", it could be misconstrued as that.

I have my own personal opinions and beliefs, but like everyone else, I am relying on the advertising and testimonies of Quicktime and the owner of Quicktime.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

"Brent is in kahuts with Quicktime and he's helping spread this propaganda lie..."

Cahoots, Brent.

[RodKnock]

I'm lost. Is there a blowproof bellhousing that's passed SFI 6.1 testing and is certified and that doesn't need to be trimmed for ground clearance in a Cobra installation?

[blykins]

If what our boy @ Mr. Gasket is telling us is certainly the case, then the answer to that question is no.

I can still see how a bellhousing could pass SFI testing without being SFI approved, but the jury is now out until some definitive answers roll in.

[RodKnock]

D-CEL, what do you use for bellhousing in your Cobra?

[RICK LAKE]

To everyone. You guys have gone over the edge.
#1st This is going to apply for ALL bellhousings, unless there is a COMPLETE
circle of bolts and motor plate with the correct mounting bolts and nuts, an explosion of a flywheel is going to come out the weakest location it can. 98% of you guys are running SFI flywheels like myself. Unless you are turning in the 7,000 rpms and up, there should be no failures. This is what the testing is for. The same goes for clutches. The top line clutches are also SFI tested and numbers. The remanufactured ones you can buy for $150.00 with complete setup are not. This is not to say that they will not last 100K miles and never have a problem if kept in a max rpm of about 5,500 rpms.
#2 This same thing went on last year. I was the one to e-mail QT and still have all the e-mails. In short it was simple
QT doesn't have $20,000.00 to test every bellhousing for an SFI stamp. They have tryed to do as many bellhousings as possible, they where going broke from this. You guys are not taking into account how many bellhousing need to be made to just break even with manufacturing cost, shipping, and personal needed for the jobs. FE motor have 3-5 bellhousing depending on which trans you want to run. McLeod is the one of the only manufactures I know with multi mounting plates on a bellhousing. I sure it is safe but I want a 1 piece bellhousing on my car.
#3 As for picking on Brent, He is the parts guys and trys to do his best to give "US" low prices, top of the line parts, quick delivery, and STANDS BEHIND THE PARTS HE SELLS. Brent didn't build them. We all need to littlen up on him. NO BODY is getting rich doing this for a living. It's a love of COBRAS. Without him on some parts you would have to goto Summit, Jegs' or PAW for parts and most of the time they cost alot more.
#4 Cutting bellhousing, In NJ they need to be cut and be no lower than the rim on a car. Lakewood tells you if you MODIFY the bellhousing they void the warrantty. It's that simple. I run lakewood, have not cut the bellhousing. It has hit a pothole cover and it don't damage the car.
IMO If you guys are racing, you are going with multi disc mini clutch setups. IF you are street guys and going to the track and do a little abuse of the car and are not running 40# flywheels, the QT bell should hold an exploding flywheel in the can area , not to say a couple of small pieces will not get out.The other question is the testing for SFI. My understanding is that this test is done with a 28 pound flywheel and not 40 pounds. Here is the rub I have.
The problem is QT makes a great bellhousing. The problem is questionable wording in the selling part discription. Brent wouldn't sell parts to anyone here or on other forums without being sure the part is safe. The key thing is to use parts that are to WORK in whatever RPM range you like and not push parts that are safe for 5,000 rpms and push them to 6,700 rpms. Odds are they will break over time and when you least want them too. I have blown discs that where rebuilt many years ago. Lakewood was the only bellhousing that was NHRA, IHRA approved. Ansen and others except for the cobra bellhousing with the NHRA stamped in the mold where not legal. Give this a little time, it will fix itself with the new company. Rick L. Ps I don't have every bolt on the bottom of my bellhousing done. I want a weak spot for the explosion to have a place to go, I like out the bottom even if this means running over my own debrie and blowing a tire. Down is better that up or around. Rick

[Jerry Clayton]

Thanks Rick for your view--


In the area of bell housings for a Cobra replica( or any STREET car) you probably don't need a bell housing with a PRETTY sticker> >>>>>If you do, there is a multitude of other SFI specs that you also will need to meet, which includes roll cages, harness, head rests,harmonic balancers, drive shaft shields, fuel systems, driver suits, helmuts, gloves, etc, etc---all of which will need PRETTY stickers with a current period date---

Now---for bell housings--(and assuming that you have a good clutch) you won't need a SFI one altho that is a good place to start----any of the Quick time, Lakewood,McLeod, etc that fits your block/trans combo and properly installed will fit you needs and safely contain any parts that might break.

As far as ground clearance---It used to be accepted by NHRA to trim the bottom of the housing for clearance by cutting off the edge up to the radius of the section between the bottom four holes, eliminating the center two holes .

And of course the manufacture says this will void the WARRANTEE---but it didn't void the acceptance of the racing groups----NHRA, UDRA, ETC

and it is important to use the block plate and be bolted between thethe bolts into the block to give more upper strength to the assy.

[RICK LAKE]

Jerry Clayton Jerry you have been racing for how many years, too many to count. I would seriously doubt that you would every install a Mcleod module bellhousing that has as many as 3 pieces to bolt together to get a motor and trans bolted togeather. I can see you with a Lakewood and MAYBE in the last 2-3 years going to a QT bell, unless you have gone to a titanium bellhousing.
Rules have been bent,twisted, rolled over, gray areas, and just plain missed. With safety being the most important thing in our hobby, I believe in no gray areas and yes is yes and no is no, just plain simple. New people coming into this hobby need the "BEST CORRECT INFO" they can get. I doubt that you have cut the bottom of your bellhousing. I think you are just too smart to temp faith, also running the best equipment you can afford and fine. Rick L.

[Jerry Clayton]

Rick

Right you are I wouldn't use a multi piece McLeod or any other multi piece together modular thingie---I am for simple and fewer pieces ---

I have one of my old Lakewood cans here somewhere that I'll try to get some photos of and post them.

How, ever, the Lakewood type housing is too big to fit in something like my car and there is no need for that type unit---the more stock, spun, tapered shape of the QuickTime is better suited for that application (T56) and is what I'll be using(UNLESS I race the car and then I'll evaluate what is available and what might be a sponsered deal!!!
If racing (with a PRETTY sticker) I will be using a low ground clearance type and a multi disc unit----

Jerry

[D-CEL]

Brent,
I do not wish or intend harm to you or your company. If you think that is my intent, I apologize it certainly is not.
You are in no way responsible for the content of QTs web site or the claims they make.

For what its worth put a call into Ross McCombs today. It says his mailbox is full so I couldn’t leave a message. I will keep trying.

I have asked Mr. McCombs to produce the test reports or other data to back up his claim. I have not received or seen anything.
SFI states that it has not tested this configuration.

I think it’s important that all of us perform our own due-diligence when we are confronted with information like this.

To answer Rodknock’s question, I run a Lakewood that was trimmed by a previous owner. It’s big and heavy and ugly, but I have a history with them. I’ve had 4 different LW’s in my life. I’ve never heard of a failure to contain. (I’m sure they have failed, I just haven’t seen one. Has anyone else?)
I looked at the QT 8010,I liked it, smaller, lighter, generally cooler, had it on my list. Then I saw the video and began investigating.

This is not about who’s right or who is wrong. This is about truth in advertising of a safety item.
If you make a claim that you intake manifold makes the same power I could care less. When a claim of the same safety level, that’s very different issue. At least to me it is.
Bossofu thought he bought an SFI certified bellhousing. Why did he think that? Because the website says “Passed all SFI testing”

To clarify, SFI 6.1 says a 12” diameter, 17.6 pound flywheel(cast or steel) with ring gear shall be modified to explode into 6 pieces at between 9000 and 10000rpm. It shall contain all of the fragments and remain attached to the motorplate.

[kgs365]

I can't believe this tread is still going on...I'm getting a QT non SFI bellhousing...the bottom line is you have to trim a SFI bellhousing or buy a bellhousing that is not SFI approved but doesnt need to be trimmed...bottom line neither is SFI

[RICK LAKE]

kgs365 You will be fine with either of the 2 bellhousing. Just ask Peter or Bob if the flywheel is SFI, that's all. Ask the weight too. See if the motor comes with a 22 pound flywheel. If this is the weight I see no problems ever. If the flywheel is a 40 pounder and SFI, I would ask you to limit rpms to 6,000. I am sure that the cobra bug for more power will bite you and down the road, you will want and need a bigger stick under the hood.
IMO I think that the SFI testing is better than no testing, but question how and what size flywheel is exploded in the bellhousing. Most FE motors run from 20 pound to 40 pound flywheels. I think this is why some people are so concerned. I was the one last year who started the same thing.
There is a side note on that exploding 557 boss motor. I believe that the guys didn't want to wait for a Billet aluminum flywheel and went with a cast one.I Under stand that this flywheel let loose at 7,100 rpms or higher. They where in a hurry to see big power and could have cost someone there life. The other STUPID thing was they wasted a rare boss block. I am sure they will have it welded back togeather. Question will be is the block still internally solid. Good luck with your car, looking forward to seeing it at ERA or one of the shows. Rick L.

[mikeforte]

Hi,
I'm not here to throw any stones but....

1, The reason you would need to contain a "clutch explosion" is mostly from using a stock cast iron flywheel. Lets face it, cast iron is crystalline iron that can not withstand high rpm. When used they get heat cracks. Yes cracks in the surface that go down .030+ below the surface. That along with used fasteners or improperly torqued bolts can lead to a disaster. This is why SFI has specifications that will not allow such flywheels in competition. Remember the stock aluminum bellhousing will stop nothing compared to a Quick Time that is not SFI approved. Your decision to purchase SFI approved race parts or stock parts are usually determined by "need" and more so "budget".
2, Most do not know this but I sent Ross at Quick Time the OEM Ford bellhousings (FE & 385) for him to measure years ago. I also sent Flathead, Nailhead & GM BOP. So with these parts came the new larger bellhousings that Quick Time made and eventually some got SFI approved.
3, I have over 28 years selling new transmissions and my entire career at Forte's Parts Connection developing new products to go with the manual transmissions I sell. You also must know the GM Tremec 3550 was first developed from a Ford 3550 and bolted to my stock bellhousing without an adapter in my 68 Z-28 to replace the stock Muncie. At the same time I developed an Early Ford 3550 that bolted to a stock Ford bellhousing without an adapter. I brought these Forte's Tremec versions to market starting in March 1993 in magazine ads, feature articles, car shows and exhibiting at PRI shows, Hotrod & Performance show & SEMA.

Three week ago celebrated my 29th year in business. How the time flies.....

Any sales or tech questions can be answered nites & weekends via email [email]mikeforte302@gmail.com or on my cell phone 781 248 8946 and weekdays at 508 875 0016

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

To everyone. You guys have gone over the edge.
#1st This is going to apply for ALL bellhousings, unless there is a COMPLETE
circle of bolts and motor plate with the correct mounting bolts and nuts, an explosion of a flywheel is going to come out the weakest location it can. 98% of you guys are running SFI flywheels like myself. Unless you are turning in the 7,000 rpms and up, there should be no failures. This is what the testing is for. The same goes for clutches. The top line clutches are also SFI tested and numbers. The remanufactured ones you can buy for $150.00 with complete setup are not. This is not to say that they will not last 100K miles and never have a problem if kept in a max rpm of about 5,500 rpms.
#2 This same thing went on last year. I was the one to e-mail QT and still have all the e-mails. In short it was simple
QT doesn't have $20,000.00 to test every bellhousing for an SFI stamp. They have tryed to do as many bellhousings as possible, they where going broke from this. You guys are not taking into account how many bellhousing need to be made to just break even with manufacturing cost, shipping, and personal needed for the jobs. FE motor have 3-5 bellhousing depending on which trans you want to run. McLeod is the one of the only manufactures I know with multi mounting plates on a bellhousing. I sure it is safe but I want a 1 piece bellhousing on my car.
#3 As for picking on Brent, He is the parts guys and trys to do his best to give "US" low prices, top of the line parts, quick delivery, and STANDS BEHIND THE PARTS HE SELLS. Brent didn't build them. We all need to littlen up on him. NO BODY is getting rich doing this for a living. It's a love of COBRAS. Without him on some parts you would have to goto Summit, Jegs' or PAW for parts and most of the time they cost alot more.
#4 Cutting bellhousing, In NJ they need to be cut and be no lower than the rim on a car. Lakewood tells you if you MODIFY the bellhousing they void the warrantty. It's that simple. I run lakewood, have not cut the bellhousing. It has hit a pothole cover and it don't damage the car.
IMO If you guys are racing, you are going with multi disc mini clutch setups. IF you are street guys and going to the track and do a little abuse of the car and are not running 40# flywheels, the QT bell should hold an exploding flywheel in the can area , not to say a couple of small pieces will not get out.The other question is the testing for SFI. My understanding is that this test is done with a 28 pound flywheel and not 40 pounds. Here is the rub I have.
The problem is QT makes a great bellhousing. The problem is questionable wording in the selling part discription. Brent wouldn't sell parts to anyone here or on other forums without being sure the part is safe. The key thing is to use parts that are to WORK in whatever RPM range you like and not push parts that are safe for 5,000 rpms and push them to 6,700 rpms. Odds are they will break over time and when you least want them too. I have blown discs that where rebuilt many years ago. Lakewood was the only bellhousing that was NHRA, IHRA approved. Ansen and others except for the cobra bellhousing with the NHRA stamped in the mold where not legal. Give this a little time, it will fix itself with the new company. Rick L. Ps I don't have every bolt on the bottom of my bellhousing done. I want a weak spot for the explosion to have a place to go, I like out the bottom even if this means running over my own debrie and blowing a tire. Down is better that up or around. Rick

[blykins]

..........

[mikeforte]

Hi kgs365,
The TKO-600 you're getting will fit directly to the Quick Time bellhousing I have in stock without a spacer plate or the FE short input kit needed to be installed. QT has a shorter bellhousing to fit Top Loaders or the Richmond 5 & 6 speed. If your chassis requires a Top Loader length TKO, I have all of that in stock too.
Are you going to need my external hydraulic slave kit for your FE?
Mike Forte

[joyridin']

I have read through this whole post with diligence and only offer this comment.

Mr. Gasket owns Lakewood and they now purchased QT. Give it a little time for them to update the data on the website or wherever. Arguing about it at this point in time seems to be a moot issue.

That being said...write to Mr.Gasket and ask them when their new aluminum bellhousing with titanium insert will be out. We made the prototypes a few years ago. They were pretty awesome.

[PDUB]

This discussion may have shed some light on a question I have been pondering for a couple of months now. I've been talking with Brent about building a stroked 289 motor with a casting date in the '64 range. As most of you know, Ford transitioned from a 5-bolt to a 6-bolt block/bell housing design that year for the 289. But why? What was the real reason to change?

This was during a time when they were seeing rapid increases in power from the little V8 family, as they punched it out to 289 and went racing with the little bugger. This, in turn, would have stressed the flywheels of the time significantly, no doubt with some explosive results. It occurs to me that this may have been the primary motivation to affect that change in design, in order to help contain the fireworks (though it may have had minimal effect). Look at the two setups and you'll see that the 6-bolt is much stouter than the 5-bolt stuff.

There would not have been any fanfare about this, as Ford would not have wanted any bad press about failures and such, so the 5-bolt design might have gone quietly into the night with some other reason taking center stage as to why. Of course this is only speculation, and could be way off base, but it seems to fit very well with this discussion, the timeline, and the resultant parts used on the 289. I'd like to hear from anyone knowledgeable on this subject. The only thing I've been able to dig up so far on it was that the change was made to reduce some vibration, which doesn't seem very plausible.

Interesting stuff, as I was thinking of using a QT bell if I ended up with a 5-bolt block. QT is the only game in town to be able to mate that with a toploader...