5-pin wheel issues?

[kevins2]

I'm deciding on 5-pin vs. 6-pin wheels on my ERA 427 and have heard that there are frequently issues fitting the 5-pin wheels with the adapters and that sometimes the weels even need to be modified (drilled) and then indexed. This would mean marking them to make sure they are put on the car in the same exact position each time. Anyone using the 5-pin wheels on an ERA and assembled it yourself encounter any issues?

[Rick Parker]

All this stuff is done with CNC machinery now. As long as the studs are installed straight there should be no valid reason to have any problems. Put some anti seize on the tapered seat sleeve nuts to secure the adapters, it will prevent galling and allow for accurate torque reading while assembling and help keep the pins straight. I used the "Blank" adapters and macined them AND the new axles for (6) 1/2" stud instead of (5). And put it on a 4.25 bolt circle. I used the same sleeve nuts (3/4") and had the holes in the wheels made to 49/64th. Resulting in a configuration that is VERY strong.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Grubby]

My first ERA had 5 pins. No problems or hassles. They look like 6 pins when on the car for a lot less cash.

John

[snakebitekit]

no problems on my 5pins ERA either.

[kgs365]

no problems with mine...Peter said there is a fair amount of work for the 5 pins but no difference ..other then originality bragging rights and $3,000 more in your pocket

[DanEC]

Kevin - I had a minor problem fitting mine on the rear. The lugs will be too long and will have to be trimmed in length so they don't interfer with seating the threaded pins. It's not especially difficult but is a pain. I marked mine as best I could and used a cut off wheel trying to remove the minimum amount. Unfortunately I left one or two slightly too long and wasn't aware of it when I first torqued them. The hex head opening on the rear pins is slightly smaller in diameter than the threaded length and the lug tightens against the end of the pin if too long. Apparently the ground off end of the pin wasn't quite flat and that force levered the pin over just so ever slightly out of alignment.

I put the wheel on and pounded it with the palms of my hands to get it mostly seated with some effort and then tighten the spinner on it to pull it the rest of the way up. OK - until I tried to take it off - man, it was stuck, and it was all lubed up with anti-sieze. I yanked and pulled and beat on the back side with a rubber mallet for an hour or more before it started to move and I finally wiggled and pulled it off.

I kind of realized what happened so I got my calipers out and started measuring the length of the lugs and found a couple slightly longer than the others. I ground them off and then carefully finished all of them off with a grinder to make sure they were flat and tried again. Now the wheel just slides on and off with ease.

On the other wheel I carefully measured from the start and double checked the length with caliper before trying the wheel - no problems. The front lugs work fine with the pins.

Kind of a long response but yes, there could be a problem if not careful.

Dan

PS - if by chance you are having ERA source the wheels and tires I guess they will take care of this for you.

[kevins2]

Originally Posted by DanEC

PS - if by chance you are having ERA source the wheels and tires I guess they will take care of this for you.

Thanks Dan, that's my issue. I got my information directly from Doug who, as you know, assembles their turn-keys. He told me he has issues with EVERY car with 5 pins and the best he could remember was one car where he only had to twiddle with one wheel. Since I'm assembling the front-end myself, he said there is no way they will know there's a problem because it doesn't become apparent until all the pieces are put together and the 5 pin adapter is put on. The most bothersome part was he said sometimes after drilling and milling to fit, he has to index the wheel. In that case, he punch stamps the wheel so it can be placed back on in the identical position each time.

I don't want to spend the extra money, but don't want that kind of hassle either.

KGS - I believe ERA assembled your car if I remember correctly so Doug knows how to take care of this. It's just not something I want to mess with once I have the car home. They'll be putting in the rear so I'm only assembling the front-end. Still looking for more input from guys that assembled their own with 5-pins and whether they had the problem descripbed above. Maybe Bob will read this also and weigh in...

Thanks.

Regards,

Kevin

[FIA-ERA]

All this stuff is done with CNC machinery now. As long as the studs are installed straight there should be no valid reason to have any problems. Put some anti seize on the tapered seat sleeve nuts to secure the adapters, it will prevent galling and allow for accurate torque reading while assembling and help keep the pins straight.

Ditto here. I used the Trigo 5 pins and never had a problem, ever. Now, I used their neat little "alignment tool" when I installed the adapters and lugs. I also applied liberal amounts of anti seize on the lugs, knock off threads and surface area. I saw some one who didn't once and it wasn't pretty. Trying to get the wheel off was kinda ugly. Just make sure you put the correct sides on the car (don't laugh it's been done too many times) and you should be fine. Yes, for originality six pins all the way. BUT, 90% of the people out there don't know what the difference is and or what a "knock off" actually is. I NEVER had any probs as described by Doug. I never had to index my wheels. It's a tight fit, yes, but it should be! I love Doug at ERA and he's the man but I really haven't ever heard any negative comments except the "offset" sometimes isn't as good? I got mine directly from Lynn Park years ago and he knew exactly what I needed and it was perfect! Save your money!! My former ( ) ERA FIA was in the for sale section here last week, the red one. Check it out, the wheels fit perfectly! Regards, Matt

[RICK LAKE]

kevin2 Kevin which brake package are you using and are you looking to race the car or track it? I have seen 5 pin setups break and come apart. This is on the track. ERA has a great 12" brake and rotor combo and you can still run 15 wheels. The hub is billet./ I have 15+ years of racing on them and no problems or failures. They are also 6 pin. If you are running a SB ford motor the 5 pin will be OK. IF you are going with a FE motor or storker with more than 500/500 HP or torque, I would save the money and buy the stronger setup. I am not an engineer but 6 pins handling all that power easier than 5 pins. ERA has rear spindles also. I have never been a fan of adapter plates being added. IMO this has added more stress to system. I know you want the car togeather but with all the money you have in it now, whats a couple more months and another grand to have the strongest parts in the car. If you go with 5 pins, make sure you don't over torque the nuts to the studs that hold the spacers. Do a couple of road test and pull wheels and retorque them with a touch of blue loc-tite. Check them after a couple of road test for any play or loosness. Safety wire spinners on wheels and add the big clip to the hubs that safe hold on the spinners also. Good luck Rick L.

[kevins2]

Thanks for the feedback. Rick, the car will not be tracked, so going with the standard brake package. Haven't worked out the details of the motor yet, but will likely be in 500 - 550 hp range. There are a couple other differences that I need to revisit also. The spinners with the 6 pin system are stainless, with the 5 pin they are aluminum, for example.

Appreciate all the feedback - thanks.

Regards,

Kevin

[DanEC]

Since I fixed the one side I had problems with I've not had any problems with wheel fit with my Vintage wheel set up. I've had them on and off numerous times and I just grab them on both sides and give them a couple rocking motion pulls and they slide off. I remove and install my wheels on a caster dolly so they stay in the same relationship to the axle while off the car. Installation is real easy - I just roll the dolly and wheel into postions and the wheel slides right on. A couple thumps on the sidewalls with my palms and they are ready for the spinner. No messing with trying to get the pins and wheels aligned.

Even as an engineer, knock off wheel science is somewhat of a complex subject. Someday I think I'm going to sit down and really think it all through. No doubt the pins do play a roll in transferring some portion of the power to the wheels by shear resistance, but the main thing that is clamping that wheel on and securing it in place is the spinner. That clamping force is also preventing that wheel from spinning - as long as the spinner is tight. Without getting into a dynamics/mechanical study, it appears to be a combination of the two that transfers power - what % by each I'm not sure. If that spinner isn't tight, a dozen pins to transfer torque isn't going to help much because the wheel is going to depart the car anyway. As far as shear forces in the pins, there are still 1/2 inch lug bolts in there. How many far heavier, 600 to 700 HP FAST class muscle cars are hauling down the drag strip on 5-lug wheels? Those lugs are having to do far greater duty by handling both shear and tension stresses. I wouldn't worry about quality 5-pin KOs holding up. If bragging rights are at stake, money is no object and saving a couple pounds of unsprung weight at each wheel is a priority - then 6- pin wheels are the way to go.

[kgs365]

Kevin....ask Peter...hes a straight shooter....sometimes the advice from forums will result in budget creep...everybody has honest intentions ...and everyone loves control of your wallet....yes my car was built at ERA...and yes I heard it was a pain for doug and the guys as there is some machining needed...but for 4 extra pins i could not justify the $$

[kevins2]

Hi Kevin,

Actually it was Peter who brought the issue to my attention and had me speak with Doug. I agree about the extra cost but I'll be pretty uphappy if I can't get the wheels to mount. They're great guys at ERA and I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of this. I know Doug hates messing with these wheels and I'm sure I will too! That said, I decided to check around out here on the forum and so far haven't received any feedback from guys that assembled their own that matches what Doug indicates he deals with on virtually every car. You said some additional machining was required. Do you know the details? Do you have to be careful to mount your wheels on the same side/same position each time? I don't believe it always gets to that point, but if he had to index the wheels, then they'd only be centered if mounted in that same exact position.

Regards,

Kevin

[DanEC]

I have the standard brakes and Jag rear suspension on mine so maybe the additional machining has something to do with upgraded brakes. I can't think of anything on my car that looks like it might need, or received, special machining for the adaptors.

Bob, at Vintage Wheels is pretty tecnically savy and provides wheels for lots of ERA cars. Maybe he takes care of it from his end.

Kevin - if you're using FIA wheels are you getting them from Trigo? Maybe it's something specific to them??

[kevins2]

Hi Dan,

No, I'm getting the standard Jag rear and standard front-end as well. I'll ask Doug for more details but the fitment has to do with all the parts that must work together to turn a lug nut set-up into the pin drive set-up. I clearly don't understand it yet and, since I don't have the car, haven't had the chance to examine the parts. If I was receiving lots of feedback that fitting the 5-pin wheels is problematic it would be easy to make the decision to spend $$ for the 6-pin setup, but not seeing that so far. Apparently Kevin (KGS365) got some feedback from ERA that they had some issues, but haven't heard that from anyone else yet.

Maybe I should consider putting that money toward having ERA assemble the front suspension

Regards,

Kevin

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by kevins2

If I was receiving lots of feedback that fitting the 5-pin wheels is problematic it would be easy to make the decision to spend $$ for the 6-pin setup, but not seeing that so far. Apparently Kevin (KGS365) got some feedback from ERA that they had some issues, but haven't heard that from anyone else yet.

Kevin, I don't know much at all about ERA's five pin wheel system (I don't have it). That said, over the years there have been quite a few threads about five pin problems with other Cobra cars. I remember when Priobe was having his pin problems Pin drive bolts splitting Help Please and that was a pretty lengthy thread. I don't know whether ERA's system is the same, or different, from other manufacturers. Bob P. did chime in on the thread, though, as well as some other members here who are pretty bright.

EDIT -- I forgot to include a link to this thread: Trigo wheels binding... I believe it was referenced in Priobe's thread as well.

[kevins2]

Thanks Patrick, can't believe I somehow missed that thread when I searched for various iterations of 5-pin problems - it only contains 239 posts, after all . That thread effectively ended in 2009 and references a couple of other threads (one from 2002 and in the last post one from 2010). Lots of good information in there that does indicate that the 6 pin system is superior, but $2,800 better? I'm confident that Peter and Doug will steer me in the right direction, which so far is that the 6 pin set-up is a worthy investment. Once I digest all the facts and get the answers to a few more questions and the most current information, I'll simply have to decide for myself...

Thanks, and still looking to hear from anyone that had issues assembling their 5-pin set-ups on ERA front-ends.

Regards,

Kevin

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by kevins2

Lots of good information in there that does indicate that the 6 pin system is superior, but $2,800 better? I'm confident that Peter and Doug will steer me in the right direction, which so far is that the 6 pin set-up is a worthy investment.

Kevin, I can usually remember every conversation I had with Peter, Doug, Bob, Jack, etc. verbatim. But, I have absolutely no recollection whatsoever of talking with them about the pin drives... which tells me I probably never did. I think when I sat down with Peter I had already penciled in 6-pin drives and the matter was just never discussed. I can only guess that, at the time, I had dismissed the 5-pins as potentially causing more than $2,500 worth of trouble. On the other hand, there are loads of 5-pin cars running around out there without a lick of trouble. I think if you get the pins straight, and use the high quality, strong material, then 5-pins will be just as good as 6-pins. But, on this one, take a cue from ERA Chas, and don't listen to me... because I honestly don't know.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by kevins2

Lots of good information in there that does indicate that the 6 pin system is superior, but $2,800 better? I'm confident that Peter and Doug will steer me in the right direction, which so far is that the 6 pin set-up is a worthy investment.

First off-I've only had the 6's. Reason is, my wheels only came that way. But the car was originally built with bolt-on's and I bought the 6 pin hubs and spindles from Peter in about '92.
Like Rick, I'm not a fan of hanging adapters on suspension points-for weight, machining, offset or anything. Yes the money is a notable difference but I figure you can also piss that much away on heaters, tops, curtains, Smiths or similar fru-fru. I rather have a non-goofy wheel attachment. No knock on the other guys who have had 5's trouble free.
I notice in your posts that you seem very concerned about 'wheel indexing'. Fear not-it's no big deal and you should do it no matter which you get. Here's how I did it and it's cake:
Using 'White Out', make a simple dot or straight line on the edge of the hub. Then when lifting the wheel on, orient the tire stem with the mark you made. The WO stays a long time and you always put the wheel on the same way:

Further, mark each wheel back with a label or dot(s) to ID R/F, L/F or D-river, P-assenger, etc. Same wheel goes on the same corner every time in the same relation to the hub. I did that because the mag transferred metal and I wanted to keep them 'mated'. Worked perfectly for two decades.
See the label 'P'? Label the K/O's too-can't hurt.

[kevins2]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Yes the money is a notable difference but I figure you can also piss that much away on heaters, tops, curtains, Smiths or similar fru-fru. [/IMG]

You are correct - I've ordered all of those things but did promise Peter that there will be no bling on my car....

Seriously, I appreciate all the good advice from experience.

Regards,

Kevin