Check out of charging system

DanEC · #1 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 07:33 AM

Bob - when I briefly started my car (782) this weekend it appeared to be discharging before a coolant leak curtailed running it longer. My belt was not very snug and the battery was a little low from testing. I tightened the belt and charged the battery so maybe that will take care of it when I can try it again. I think the ammeter is hooked up right as turning on the lights shows it discharging. I didn't have the presence of mind to see if the ignition light was on.

This voltage regulator has a lot more leads than I'm used to on my old Plymouth - any hints to easily check the system out to pinpoint alternator vs regulator charging problems? I'm using a Powermaster stock type alternator.

thanks

DanEC · #2 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 07:50 AM

I should have noted that there are more leads connecting to the alternator also than the 2 leads/Alt and 2 leads/regulator on an old Chrysler system I recently trouble tested. Jumping leads between alternator and battery should tell me the system is charging if Voltage is around 14 - 14.5. If down around 12.5 volts I need to know which leads need to be checked to check the regulator field.

patrickt · #3 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 08:28 AM

There's not much to it. Here's a pic of the schematic. The only trick is that if the filament is out in your little red light, then you're not going to excite the regulator unless you have the little resistor. There's a lengthy thread on that from a few years back and I remember posting printouts from my automotive shop textbook from the 70's. It was still right on point, at least when it came to the ERA cars.

The first thing to look at is whether that little red light is on or off when the car is running. The nice thing about it being on is that you know it works, at least.

patrickt · #4 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 08:51 AM

IF, your light is OFF when the car is running, and IF you're only getting about 12.5 volts while it's running, and IF you are getting 12 volts to the A lead on the voltage regulator, then make these two cuts, and one jumper over, and that will help you diagnose your problem. Note that you must snip the wire lead to I on your voltage regulator (black asterisk) and you must snip the S lead from the voltage regulator as well (other black asterisk). You then jumper that snipped end of the voltage regulator side over to the the A wire just as I drew it in. Then fire up your engine and see if you get a nice 14 volts or so. Here's a pic I made for you on how you do it. This stuff is easy... you can do it.

DanEC · #5 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 09:46 AM

Thanks Patrick - not too sure about cutting into the harness. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. The red light works in that I know it lights when I turn the key on.

patrickt · #6 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanEC

Thanks Patrick - not too sure about cutting into the harness. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. The red light works in that I know it lights when I turn the key on.

Then you're half way home. Pull the plug from the voltage regulator and jumper from the FIELD tang over to the POWER tang (first and third holes on the plug from left to right) and make sure you have 12v there when the ignition is on. Start the engine and gently rev it no higher than 1500 RPM or so. If you have a nice 14v, then the problem is the voltage regulator, if the voltage does not rise, then the alternator is bad or the connections over to it are bad.

strictlypersonl · #7 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 11:36 AM

Note that Pat's technique is described in the troubleshooting supplement:
http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/wiring/wprimer.pdf

patrickt · #8 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 11:57 AM

Here's the thread I was talking about earlier: First Drive today - speedo and electrically issues / help? and here's the blurb from my old book talking about the need for the little red light to start the alternator charging (third paragraph of the first section):

DanEC · #9 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strictlypersonl

Note that Pat's technique is described in the troubleshooting supplement:
http://www.erareplicas.com/427man/wiring/wprimer.pdf

I hadn't run across this before - I could have used this a few weeks ago.

thanks

Dan

patrickt · #10 (**permalink**) 02-11-2013, 06:54 PM

Don't worry, the "my ERA won't charge" is the easiest electrical problem there is. Second only to "my horns won't blow."

DanEC · #11 (**permalink**) 02-12-2013, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Don't worry, the "my ERA won't charge" is the easiest electrical problem there is. Second only to "my horns won't blow."

My horns blow but one side of my turn signals don't work. I noticed a section in Bob's manual on that so I'll start there.

patrickt · #12 (**permalink**) 02-12-2013, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanEC

My horns blow but one side of my turn signals don't work. I noticed a section in Bob's manual on that so I'll start there.

Just trace the circuit back, starting at the "turn switch" side of the trailer relay, which is fastened to your steering column just over your knees. The only trick to that if the front turn signal bulb is bad (like with a blown filament), or if the circuit is "open" up there because of a broken wire or bad connection, then the entire side can fail to light up. The wiring is very simple, though; it's not nearly as complicated as today's cars.

DanEC · #13 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 08:15 AM

I jumped the positive cable connection at the starter relay to the gound on the voltage regulator and got 12.8 volts (I've had the charger on the battery).

I then unplugged the regulator, installed a jumper lead on the yellow wire and connected to the positive meter probe and turned the key on. I again got 12.7 volts.

I didn't try turning the flashers on since I had voltage.

Thoughts??

patrickt · #14 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanEC

I jumped the positive cable connection at the starter relay to the gound on the voltage regulator and got 12.8 volts (I've had the charger on the battery).

I then unplugged the regulator, installed a jumper lead on the yellow wire and connected to the positive meter probe and turned the key on. I again got 12.7 volts.

I didn't try turning the flashers on since I had voltage.

Thoughts??

On the alternator, confirm that you have the big ORANGE wire connected to the BAT terminal, the BLACK wire grounding it, the BLUE/GREEN wire to the FIELD and the WHITE/BLACK wire to the stator. Then pull the plug on the voltage regulator and jumper between the first tang that has the BLUE/GREEN wire and the third tang that has the YELLOW/RED wire; do not plug the voltage regulator plug back in to the voltage regulator. Start the car and rev no high than 1500 RPM and view the VOM's voltage at the battery. Report back.

DanEC · #15 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 08:33 AM

Since the ammeter was showing a charge (pegged over with a partially discharged battery) with the power and field jumped together; and since the ground is good - it looks to me that per Bob's electrical primer publication, I have a bad voltage regulator. I took it out thinking it might be a mechanical one that I could check the points and gap inside but it's a sealed unit so I guess it's a non-mechanical unit.

patrickt · #16 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 08:36 AM

I'd like to hear the actual voltage reading with the jumper across the first and third tang of the voltage regulator plug and the engine running at 1500 RPM.

DanEC · #17 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 12:13 PM

From orange wire terminal on back of alternator to ground for voltage regulator - 12.5 volts (battery geting a little low). No change when I reved it up. The regulator was plugged in.

Unplugging the regulator and jumping the two terminals the voltage from alternator to regulator ground was 14.5 volts and as I reved it, it was climbing to 17 to 18 volts.

Looks like alternator is putting out OK. Back to the regulator?

patrickt · #18 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanEC

From orange wire terminal on back of alternator to ground for voltage regulator - 12.5 volts (battery geting a little low). No change when I reved it up. The regulator was plugged in.

Unplugging the regulator and jumping the two terminals the voltage from alternator to regulator ground was 14.5 volts and as I reved it, it was climbing to 17 to 18 volts.

Looks like alternator is putting out OK. Back to the regulator?

Yes, the alternator is working. Try whacking the regulator with the handle end of your screwdriver and then plug the plug back in and wiggle each wire going in to each side of the male and female ends of the plug.

DanEC · #19 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 03:09 PM

The whacking-it-with-a-bigger-hammer trick didn't work and I've had that thing plugged in and unplugged so many times I'm about to wear it out. I went down and ordered a mechanical unit. At least if it doesn't work I can take it apart and figure it out.

This is the same frustrating experience I went through with my 67 GTX last summer and it was the electronic regulator on it also.

Thanks for the help Patrick.

DanEC · #20 (**permalink**) 02-17-2013, 09:14 AM

Patrick, I double checked the connections at the alternator. These rebuilt alternators don't have any legible print left on the case but I hooked everything up per ERA's schematic. I made sure the Field and Stator wires went to the connections with respect to distance from the shaft per ERA's manual.

I ran that test with gounding the two leads on the regulator plug yesterday and got a full charge on the ammeter. I'm going to re-start it after bit and will run it again but I don't think the results will be any different.

Thanks

Dan