ERA standard Camaro brakes - no "tick"?

[Dimis]

Here let me help...

GO BIG BRAKES... WILWOODS or other?
Wins all round... Ticking problem solved & you get better brakes.

Any other ways you'd like us to help spend your money, just ask. Enjoy

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by lippy

If I determine that this problem will be a constant pain, and I was borderline on the big brakes anyway, this may push me over. Make sense?

Well I 'got' immediately that the thread was about an annoying noise. But I attempted to alert you that I found in my experience that the far bigger concern for me was stopping power. And my motor's final form makes only 550HP-less than you're contemplating. So I tried to raise your thinking to what I feel is a far more significant issue.
Ain't trying to waste your cash on bling.
I always disagreed with Pete on the 'necessity' of the Wilwoods and happily gave him the money for a pair which I installed myself. Further-I improved the rears to ventilated rotors. So I had a clear vision of what I wanted, based on my experience. It was the inadequacy of the small brakes for the way I used the car.
It's a common tenet here on the site, that no matter what one's starting point, in time, one always wants more power having gotten used to the current level. That was certainly my case. So if you start at 600, it's a good bet your appetite will increase. Discount the argument that you can only 'use' 342HP or some such because of traction. The whole, near-3 decade project for me was about getting to the next level in all respects without making it a single-purpose car. I always looked to improve capability in a systematic way. Because the car is extremely rewarding and pays you back when done correctly and in a coordinated- package way.
You're not me and don't need the same operating principles as me-I respect that. You may just want a nice car that you assembled yourself to drive on Sundays.
I just tried to alert you that there are other factors besides noise to change your priorities. Like effectively (as opposed to 'adequately') stopping such a strong package (which would be a shame to spend on and not use) and resale value content.
And you will try to sell it someday-it took me 27 years but I did too.

[DanEC]

Need to leave a few improvements for future projects. I've built/restored a couple cars and once completed (well mostly) I get bored and need the next project. Upgrading the brakes will probably be one of my future projects - along with correct carbs, maybe leather seats, etc. That keeps the interest level up. How many times did you re-build your car over the years Chas?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Need to leave a few improvements for future projects. I've built/restored a couple cars and once completed (well mostly) I get bored and need the next project. Upgrading the brakes will probably be one of my future projects - along with correct carbs, maybe leather seats, etc. That keeps the interest level up. How many times did you re-build your car over the years Chas?

Good point Dan. But when you 'solved' one project, you moved on to other cars and began again.
I changed appearance and big chunks 2 1/2 times and in between, changed heads, clutches, brakes and a million details throughout-but never tired of the car. The car was built to a 'shoestring' standard (back then it was rare and cool just to have one) and over time and changes, all the options and performance improvements went on. Like the mags which were unheard of on replicas for a long time.

[kevins2]

Like Lippy, I also spoke with the guys at ERA. For driving on the street, they actually talked me out of the bigger brakes, telling me it would be a waste of money and that I could upgrade later if I decided to track the car. Otherwise, no need. Seeing that I wasn't convinced (I was at their shop, so this was in person), they reminded me that the Camaro brakes were designed to stop a much heavier car and will stop the Cobra just fine. They went on to explain the need for the ERA rear and bigger brakes for track use - primarily for dealing with heat.

So, I respect the opinions of you who have been driving these cars for years, and particularly of those that have driven with both the standard and upgraded brakes. But, put yourself in Lippy's (and my) place where we're being told the opposite by ERA, whom we also highly respect. Confusing to say the least. Since I just installed my brakes, I don't plan to consider asking ERA to exchange them and, as Dan said, will keep this in mind for a future upgrade.

Regards,

Kevin

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by kevins2

They went on to explain the need for the ERA rear and bigger brakes for track use - primarily for dealing with heat.

I love Pete dearly and have known him a loong time. I heard the exact same advice when I asked and decided that we can disagree on some things and still be great pals.
And he would gladly sell me parts he might not use himself.
The real key is predetermining how you will use the car. Peter underestimated how much of a speed freak I was...

[Bobcat]

I`m going to throw one other thing into this discussion . I`ve got the Sierra brakes on the front and the ERA rear suspension ..... the car does spend time on the track . For street driving , the Sierras will make a "popping " sound when cold as you apply the brakes .... and they will rattle . Talked to Sierra and they said they don`t recommend that caliper for the street . The clearances are 50 thou. all around as the caliper itself is aluminum and that is required so the pads don`t seize at racing temps . You never get up to that temp on the street . I can live with it as , after all , these cars aren`t a boulevard cruiser where you can`t hear anything . If you want racing brake capability ( I did ) , then you have to make some "sacrifices" .
Another thing , the pads furnished by ERA are perfect for the street and LIMITED high speed driving . After two laps at VIR and two 130 + mph come downs at the end of the back and front straights per lap , those pads were toast . I now have track only pads I use for those events .
As ERA Charles said , what are you going to do with the car ? IMHO , competition brakes for the street open up another set of things for you to deal with .

[lippy]

That is why I would prefer Wilwoods over Sierra and Coleman if I went with big brakes. Larger company, more product on the street, more engineering resources.

[ERA Chas]

Sierra bought a company called JFZ in the late 80's I believe. That's the exact same 4 piston caliper as the original JFZ.
-Which were originally sold by ERA as the big brake kit with a 12.1" modified Mustang rotor.
The Wilwood Superlite series is not much different than the JFZ / Sierra.
Larger-yes but the same basic tech as a 60's Cup car. So don't fret that's it's an unproven design or bogus company.

[Bobcat]

Lippy , I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say . Racing parts on the street have their own set of issues . Makes no difference if they are Wilwood or Sierra , racing parts are designed for a totally different set of conditions . For example , my racing only pads will glaze up pretty quickly on the street and never come up to correct operating temps if they aren`t used hard . They also wear the rotors .... higher friction/ harder pads and street use do not go together . IMO , if you aren`t going to use the brakes that hard , then why spring for parts that aren`t intended for everyday use ? Just like my cam , which is fairly long . Not very well mannered below 2100 rpm , but great for coming out of a turn .
Check with ERA , but I think they require you to have the ERA optional IRS rear if you want the big front brakes . Also , be careful playing around with different pads as you can unbalance the F/R brake ratios .
That`s why I let a brake guy for Roush Racing come up with the track pads I now use ..... like hitting a brick wall when I get on them hard , but I get rotor wear and not streetable at all .

[ERA Chas]

Good points Bob but the street pads from ERA and Hawk work very well on street, won't eat rotors and poorly on track.
If he truly just street drives they would be excellent.
Not sure about 'only with ERA rear'. I installed mine in the 90's with a Jag with no objection from ERA.
But they hadn't invented the optional rear then...

[patrickt]

C'mon, it's not like changing pads on cotter pin calipers is an all day task. Well, maybe for RodKnock....

[lippy]

I spoke with Peter: (1) they currently are using Wilwoods for the big brake option, and (2) no problem using big brakes with "standard" Jag rear end.

So another way to frame the question is that, for mostly street driving, ranging from cruising to aggressive, are the Wilwoods a good option? If so, what pads are best for this scenario? Will the Wilwoods work well if they aren't heated/cycled as hard as they would be on a track?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lippy

So another way to frame the question is that, for mostly street driving, ranging from cruising to aggressive, are the Wilwoods a good option? If so, what pads are best for this scenario? Will the Wilwoods work well if they aren't heated/cycled as hard as they would be on a track?

The big brakes are fine for the street, Wilwood or Sierra. I use the soft Hawk pads -- they do fine for the street, and work better the warmer you get them. I don't have the "pop, click" noise, but they will squeal a bit when cold. If you want to see some nice pad graphs for temps, click here: Pad Friction Graphs

[lippy]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The big brakes are fine for the street, Wilwood or Sierra. I use the soft Hawk pads -- they do fine for the street, and work better the warmer you get them. I don't have the "pop, click" noise, but they will squeal a bit when cold. If you want to see some nice pad graphs for temps, click here: Pad Friction Graphs

Thanks Patrick. The ERA guys sure are on top of things - especially for a small company. I checked out the graphs in the link. Am I interpreting this incorrectly, or does it look like Polymatrix A has a higher coefficient of friction across all temps (100-1300F), versus all of the others, and should be the better choice, unless the wear is significantly worse? But those pads are intended for racing only, and not street use.

[Bobcat]

Be careful about those graphs as you can drive yourself crazy with information overload on things like initial bite , coefficient of friction etc . Just call Wilwood ( if that`s who you go with ) and tell them type of driving , car weight , rotor material etc and ask for a pad recommendation . I use Hawk pads for the street , called them and used what they recommended . In my experience , stay away from racing pads for the street . Racing pads generally need a higher temp to really come into their own and are more aggressive on the rotors . On mine , it takes about one lap for the pads and rotors to really start working . On the Hawk street pads , they work from the beginning with ok pedal pressure on the street .

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by lippy

So another way to frame the question is that, for mostly street driving, ranging from cruising to aggressive, are the Wilwoods a good option?

I thought I told you this on page 1.
Just tell them to ship you the car with the Wilwoods and street pads. When you go tracking, ask for the 'track pads'. Forget heat cycles, coefficients of friction and the atomic weight of lint.
Overthinking............................

[patrickt]

Hawk makes it pretty easy (last time I bought, that is). There were only two choices: Soft and Hard.

[RodKnock]

How much extra are the Wilwood's? The choice seems so obvious to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

I remember when I bought my Kirkham and I was thinking about installing the FIA wheels. Kirkham said if I go with the FIA's, then I couldn't get the big brake option. I said "OK, no FIA wheels for me then."

I have a 482 FE (600+ HP) and I just can't see not having the big brake option. Does not compute.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

C'mon, it's not like changing pads on cotter pin calipers is an all day task. Well, maybe for RodKnock....

At times, going or getting to the bathroom can seem like an all day task (and its not because the evacuation is difficult).