Best approach to bleeding the brakes

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bernica

While I am totally fine with the Motive system for bleeding, this Phoenix system is interesting too. But at $400 I will stick with the Motive.

Brake Bleeder Tool - Maxpro

Dang, $400? You can buy a lot of cheddar and cream cheese dip for that....

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Bernica

While I am totally fine with the Motive system for bleeding, this Phoenix system is interesting too. But at $400 I will stick with the Motive.

Brake Bleeder Tool - Maxpro

Phoenix has several different models. I was remembering V90 but I think what I actually have is the V12 which was about $175. They have commercial units going up to about $400.

Phoenix Systems 2003 Phoenix Systems Brake Bleeder Kits

I think the main theory of the Phoenix system is that by bleeding from a low point to the high point (master reservoir) air is being forced generall upward by the path of it's least resistance. Otherwise, I don't think there is a lot of difference between the Motive and Phoenix system - other than pressurizing the little Girling cans doesn't seem like a good idea to anyone.

[347stroker]

Bernica the one in the Summit catalog is seventy bucks and is for the home mechanic. The other ones are pro units. It works. Tom

[kevins2]

There is one step missing out of the gravity feed method that ERA uses for new, empty systems. After getting fluid in the system and gravity bleeding, Doug closes the bleeders and jacks the front of the car up - uses a 4 x 4 on the jack to raise it as high as possible. Slowly, emphasize...slowly, pump the pedal 5 - 7 times until the gurgling noise stops. This gets air out of the master cylinders. Lower the front and bleed again. I've done this a number of times but am still not happy with the firmness of the pedal. No bubbles coming out but still doesnt' feel firm. I've moved on to other things until I can get a better feel for the pedal (once I can drive the car), but will have to look at other methods if the pedal still seems mushy.

[DanEC]

Decided to start a new thread after first bleeding effort.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by patrickt

1) Put the surgical tubing on the bleeder screw, put the other end in to the mayonnaise jar. Fill the mayonnaise jar with just enough fluid to cover the bottom of the hose.

2) Fill reservoir with fresh fluid and crack bleeder screw.

3) Pump brakes several times. Inspect level of fluid in reservoir. Inspect fluid in mayonnaise jar and in the surgical tubing.

4) Keep pumping until the fresh fluid (using a different color fluid helps) is through the system and clearly visible in the surgical tubing. Your mayonnaise jar will be filling up, so you know you've done it correctly.

5) There will be no air in the system because any vacuum will just draw fluid back in to the system (not air). If you see air bubbles clinging to the side of the tube, plick them with your finger so they get pushed through to the mayonnaise jar. The tubing should be completely full of fluid with no air bubbles present.

6) Tighten the bleeder screw and pull the surgical tubing off it. Hold the tubing upright and it will drain in to the mayonnaise jar (remember, it is full of fluid).

7) This is a virtually fool-proof method of bleeding your brakes, and you can take your time, get distracted, and wander off, and it will still work perfectly.

I bled my brakes this way and it looks like it worked perfectly and quickly. I had one fitting that needed to be tightened but, other than that, no problems. The brake pedal seems very firm. I've always used the two-person method before. But if this works (and it does), I can't understand using speed bleeders, or pressure systems (unless you are a pro and need to do it quickly without pumping).

Since the reservoir on the ERA feeds both the brake and clutch cylinders, can I also hook up the clutch slave cylinder and bleed it before the engine is in, and bolt it onto the engine once it's in the car?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lippy

I bled my brakes this way and it looks like it worked perfectly and quickly. ... I can't understand using speed bleeders, or pressure systems (unless you are a pro and need to do it quickly without pumping).

Since the reservoir on the ERA feeds both the brake and clutch cylinders, can I also hook up the clutch slave cylinder and bleed it before the engine is in, and bolt it onto the engine once it's in the car?

Yes, speed bleeders are for the brake bleeding snob crowd. Real pros use a plastic tube and mayonnaise jar. Now you can bleed the clutch master and slave with the engine/trans out of the car, but you won't be able to tell if the pedal is squishy or not without a true load on the slave (meaning the fork and pressure plate). Plus, sometimes you can get a little air bubble in that slave cylinder. To get it out you work the plunger with your finger to push it out the plastic tube. Other than that, there's nothing to it.

[DanEC]

Speed bleeders were my ultimate solution (ERAChase was right I'm afraid) because one of the GM front calipers had such worn out threads on the bleeder port that I couldn't keep it from sucking air back in with either reverse pressure or vacuum bleeding. It would have bleed OK if I had had someone pump the pedal and hold while I opened and closed the bleeder port - but I stumbled across Dorman speed bleeders at Pepboys and it was easier picking them up than scheduling a time with my wife to assist with the bleeding effort. Except for the worn out caliper issue they would not have been necessary.

Bleeding the uninstalled slave cylinder shouldn't be a problem - may even be easier since you can hold it up high with the bleeder at the top and get the air out easily. As the manual suggests, just slight movement of the clutch bellcrank by hand will pass enough fluid to get the air out.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Speed bleeders were my ultimate solution (ERAChase was right I'm afraid)...

Why would you 'be afraid' I was right Dan? I would only offer you things that:
A. Work.
B. Make a job much easier-anytime they needed doing.
The defective caliper should not be the only reason to change to speeds. They just plain work and eliminate a second person, pedal pumping and nose-jacking the car. And I know Doug at ERA does that but I never found that necessary. My car was always level on stands and with my vacuum bleeder, was a one-man operation and not an ordeal. And always got a rock-hard pedal.
There's a lot of wives tales and internet BS out there and following the hackneyed consensus usually prevents you from trying alternate, improved methods.
It took me a few years to discover this 'better way' and it was way before there even was 'internet BS'...

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Why would you 'be afraid' I was right Dan?

I dread being caught in the middle between you and patrickt. I feel like the squirrel in the middle of the road with a car coming on.

[lippy]

I didn't need to jack the car up. Just put the tube in a bottle (one with a magnet on the side) and slowly pumped, furthest first. The first bleed (that had to evacuate all the air in the master cylinder) took the longest, but they went quickly after that. I also have Wilwoods on the front, so that may have made a diff. I'm sure the speed bleeders work perfectly, but this worked fine also, was quick, and didn't cost anything more.

On the clutch master, I spoke with Doug this morning. He told me not to bleed it until the engine/clutch is in, to make adjustment easier.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I dread being caught in the middle between you and patrickt. I feel like the squirrel in the middle of the road with a car coming on.

Lame. That should have nothing to do with either of us trying to help you.
Which we both do.

[DanEC]

Yes you do - each in your own way.