Follow up on ERA717

[fdjake]

The guy who originally built the car had a 60's T-bird with a 428 in it that he had owned since the 1970's. He used that engine for the ERA. He told me he rebuilt it himself (enough said?) He said his old 428 T-Bird sat for YEARS because he always dreamed of building a Cobra and he kept what was left of it's rotting carcus for the engine in the ERA. He bought 717 and by his account, it took him YEARS to finish the car.

Same old story.....My guess is he tried to save a few bucks or convinced himself the pitting wasn't that bad.... Or he missed it like Bill and his "expert" did. My guy spotted it, another shop CONFIRMED IT a week later, and ERA nailed it from the get go. I honestly believe the guy just ran out of money on the project....He was visibly sick when talking about the money he had poured into the car. He wanted to retire and he had a chunk of his nest egg in 4 wheels and fiberglass. So, after paying ERA for the car and a boat load of options, THEN paying ERA's painter to do a show quality METALLIC paint job WITH stripes on the car.....WHERE WAS HE GONNA SAVE MONEY$$$$???? ERA had already been paid, the painter had already been paid....So he cut costs on the only thing left......THE ENGINE!!! This is how it plays out.....He takes the engine to a good shop and gets told....$12-15K to build it right.....But the guy says....BULLSH*T.....I've got a degree....I'm an engineer....I'll build it myself for a FRACTION of that cost.

The guy who built 717 was a Mechanical Engineer but he worked on Sewage Treatment Plants NOT motors. We all know Engineers....They think they can fix anything.

The guy was BURIED in this car to the tune of $70K +++. I've seen this story a thousand times....Spend the money for the SHINY stuff and CUT COSTS on the engine. Case in point...The guy ordered the OUT BOARD Disk rear end for the car which is THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS EXTRA, but didn't spend a grand or so to have the engine sleeved while it was out of the T-bird...WHY??? HE WAS OUT OF MONEY!!! When I picked up the Cobra he had a Harley, a boat, a camper, and his HOUSE for sale. Can YOU say TAPPED OUT???

So.......Bill's got a R E B U I L D in his future.

There are NO FREE LUNCHES in AMERICA folks!!!

And that's why I sold 717. FULLY DISCLOSED that the engine needed to be rebuilt... I had seen this movie before....It's the "While We're In There" movie.....While we're in there means......BU$T OUT ANOTHER GRAND!!!!!

I'm going to drive my SMALL BLOCK GT40 now.....With the A/C on!!!

Sellers remorse???

Are freakin' kidding me???? I did an Irish Jig when that car rolled out of my driveway!!!!!

[Chaplin]

Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

[fdjake]

No problem....

I had to laugh at the whole vacuum hose, gasket + carb fixed it post.....Especially when I know the entire back story on the car.

I really enjoyed the "Cheap Quick Fuel carb" comment too....Especially when coupled with the "We replaced it with a HOLLEY" comment.

Quick Fuels are just better optioned Holleys.....But where Holley goes cheap, like no float bowl sight glass for primary and secondaries....Quick Fuel includes them. Google search for Quick Fuel VS Holley.....It's not even close.

The best part???

The car went to ERA with a JUNK Holley carb on it that ran like crap.....ERA recommended and SOURCED the Quick Fuel Carb and the car ran beautifully when it came out of their shop.

So.....The car now has ANOTHER set of intake gaskets, a NEW junk Holley Carb, and a vacuum hose from the breather to the junk holley carb!!!!

But it still has the amateur rebuilt, WATER PITTED ENGINE in it from a 66 T-Bird that sat outside in Conn for 40+ years!!

I will also add that the previous owner had NO PAPER WORK for ANYTHING related to that motor....What's that tell you?

I told EVERYONE in the AD.....The MOTOR needs to be rebuilt....I even went as far as to recommend a Keith Kraft short block to save some $$$$....This isn't my first rodeo folks. Dropping off a motor at an engine shop is like having a contractor come to your house and asking him if you NEED ANYTHING DONE??? Hell yea, you need things done....I would do this and that, and this too, let's do it right....WHILE WE'RE IN THERE!!!!!!!!! Translation??? Bring your check book....AGAIN!!!

Or....spend $3500 for a Keith Kraft 428 street short block with everything inside rebuilt and WARRANTIED......Bolt on the heads, intake, oil pump, and pan from the existing crap motor....and DONE. Then SAVE THE RECEIPT!!!!!

Or dive into the ABYSS and have your "FE Expert with 27 years experience" rebuild it for a LOT more.

Gee, I know what I'd do.....But I'm EASILY MISLEAD......Hang on while I bang my head against the nearest wall!!

[Chaplin]

Hey Bill-
Hope the quick fix does it, but sounds like a complete rebuild is in your future. Just sayin'.

[DanEC]

I never heard of Quick Fuel carbs being described as cheap or junk. But, I guess as Hilliary told Congress - "what difference does it make now"? Good luck to everyone - what will be, will be.

[fdjake]

Same here......Quick fuel is basically a custom Holley with exactly the same circuit design...Literally a variant of the Holley....but with better metering and extra's that Holley doesn't spend the time or money on.

Again, E R A recommended that carb.....Yea, the 750.....Which according to Bill's "expert" was "too much carb for the car and was dumping fuel down the cylinder walls".....Does anyone else smell BS here???

Just to be clear......FORD....As in the FORD MOTOR COMPANY installed 735 Holley carbs from the FACTORY on their 428 CJ and Super CJ engines.....So obviously if a 735 came on a car with IRON HEADS, a stock intake, and friction rockers....another 15 cfm is NOT going to be "TOO MUCH CARB" for a car with Dove aluminum heads, roller rockers, and a aluminum intake.

Makes me wonder how accurate the other "expert observations" were.

[Chaplin]

Wow!! So now you are equating Bill with Hillary? I wasn't prepared to go there, but if the shoe fits ....

[DanEC]

The QF carb is history so it does little good debating it's merits or demerits. There's nothing wrong with a good Holley.

[fdjake]

I agree totally....

To insinuate that cheap parts were installed by a reputable company like ERA to MISLEAD someone is complete BULLSH*T.

If Bill cuts the oil consumption to 1 qt every 500 miles or so and he's OK with that....GREAT!!! Enjoy the car and load up on OIL...But the REALITY is....

That motor was rebuilt in a basement by an amateur.

[brent110672]

I don't understand. One guy sold a car to another with the understanding that the motor burned oil. The second guy is working on understanding why. Seems the tone has turned very harsh. This should be a fun site filled with helpful information. I built and still own ERA 723.

Brent

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by brent110672

Seems the tone has turned very harsh. This should be a fun site filled with helpful information. I built and still own ERA 723

Brent

Yeah, this one doesn't have that light, airy, que sera sera feel to it. Bill's usually not far from his smart phone; maybe he's putting the test miles on the car as we type?

[fdjake]

I agree completely....

It's all about the TONE!!!

When someones TONE leads people to believe someone was lied to or mislead I have a real problem with that.

[MJJ]

Time will tell who was correct. I will wait for the long term test results.

[mrmustang]

WOW, has this thread exploded into sheer pandemonium.

1: The comment I made about a "cheap Quickfuel carb" has to do with the 750cfm "Slayor" carb by Quickfuel carbs are the lesser offering from Quickfuel, and I equate them to the "Edelebrock carb" in their line. Bolt it on and forget about it, 90% of the population won't know the difference. It is not a "Q" series Quickfuel carb, nor is it on the same level as one.

1a: With the blown powervalve on the Slayor carb, the surging while driving was horrible, and actually made me nauseous on the first 20 mile drive I took with the car.

1b: My choice to replace said carb with a Holley 04777C 650DP is based on my personal/actual time in the early 2000's with ERA234, a chassis dyno, and an unlimited supply of carbs over a three day period. That test and tune by the owner of the then new "portable chassis dyno" not only opened his eyes, but mine as well as to what works, and what does not for both track and street driving. Since the car rarely is at wide open throttle in day to day driving, the smaller carb offers a better power band, sharper throttle response, and a smoother transition based on my throttle use. Also, the chassis dyno offered us the ability to not only track HP/Torque at the rear wheels (thus taking into account parasitic drag of the driveline), also air/fuel with a dual wideband set up, but to set the rpms and speed at whatever level we wanted in whatever gear in the close ratio toploader 4spd we wanted.

1c: My comment on the over fuel issue and the wash down of the cylinder walls was based two-fold, the first being the amount of raw fuel sitting on top of the inner plenum of the intake when I removed the "Slayor" carb, and the distinct odor of fuel when we drained the oil and dropped the pan (more on that later in my response).

2: My comment on the gasket is dead on, the pictures posted in an earlier post on this thread tell the tale. The gasket was torn, not blown out, perhaps not apparently seen when initially installed, but absolutely seen when we removed the intake manifold. So much so that one of the intake bolts was forced through a corner of the intake gasket bolt hole. Common causes for this are innocent enough and I've had it happen before with FE intake gaskets that I have had to adjust with the intake lightly laying on them. You notice it slip and adjust with your fingers, then run the bolts down and torque as needed. In this case, clearly the installer was not as attentive as he could have been, and again, I've learned from past bad experience to double check everything with a flashlight down the bolt holes to make sure that the alignment is perfect before running my bolts into them. After talking with the tech folks at DOVE Manufacturing (who suggested the 202A Mr Gasket set), I choose to use a Felpro "print-o-seal" intake gasket instead of the lesser quality MrGasket item. Personal choice based on personal experience, nothing to argue about.

3: Why drop the pan, simple, the first place to start an "in car" inspection of the engine was to drop the pan and check for bits and pieces of engine parts (IE: nuts, bolts, gasket material, broken ring parts, mouse droppings, etc), in which in our case none were found, not even small metal filings which would have signaled a metal on metal issue, thank goodness. By dropping the pan, we were able to check the bore (yes, we did hand crank the engine over) from the bottom to see if there were any issues. We then moved to the top of the motor, where we ran the color video bore scope down through the spark plug holes and once again rotated the engine by hand so as to inspect the cylinder walls, then added a mirror to the end and checked the valves. Again, helpful so as to see what wear we could.

4: My FE engine guru has been my friend for a long time, has built countless engines for my projects over the years, and has nothing to prove to me one way or the other. He is old school, does not have a web site, nor even a cell phone that I know of. My friend/mechanic who has been assisting me (he now has the car to check over the rest of it while I am traveling) used to work on helicopter engines for the military (still does, only now part time as a volunteer at the local military helicopter museum) and is far more anal than I ever will be when it comes to checking and double checking each and every item, all the way down to the addition of an aluminum 1/8" heatsink under the new carb, just to play it safe.

5: Clunk in the suspension is being investigated by the above referenced friend/mechanic while I am gone. I suspect a suspension bushing has prematurely disintegrated, as I have not only had this issue in the past with ERA234, but ERA2031 as well. Not a big deal really, but still worth mentioning.


In closing, I've always been straight forward and open with what I find and what my experiences have been (good, bad, or truly ugly), that will not change with ERA717. If after I get back the car is using oil more than it should, then I will pull the motor this winter and dive into things much deeper than I have to date. If the oil consumption issue has been taken care of with the replacement of the intake gasket and the addition of the PCV system, I'll report that as well once I am back in town.



Bill S.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Congrats on the anniversary!!

Thanks , 28 years, still feel like it was yesterday, don't know how it has gone by so fast.


Bill S.

[fdjake]

2 different shops saw the pitting Bill.....TWO....I saw it myself on both occasions.

I'd get another camera in there before you spend any more money.

Just saying

If you want...Check out www.74tr6.com Go to the left hand column and scroll down to "Machining block 2008" and work your way down.

The pictures were taken at Bob Mason's Race Engines.....You can see what this guy has invested in his shop in these pics. He's the real deal and he's known for his absolute honesty. When he showed me the pitting in that engine it was obvious that motor needed serious work. Call him....He'll tell you all about it.

I honestly wish I was wrong......But I'm afraid you'll find out for yourself at some point.

[Jamo]

Enough.....

[750hp]

Seller = happy to offload the car.
Buyer = happy to have bought a beautiful car at a great price.

Everyone's a winner!

[DanEC]

Happy, happy, happy .......

[CHANMADD]

Again ...........as I told you before you sold the car the PCV exclusion was your biggest.culprit....
Just continue dancing the jig............it ain't your problem anymore,