Starter/Flywheel Damage - Help Need Advice

[patrickt]

OK, my 428 block, as beautiful as it is, is a service block that was cast in 1974. My starter motor has the Engineering Part Number D0TF-11001-A and Ford Part Number of C4TZ-11002-B. If my block had been five years younger, then it would use Engineering Part Number C8AF-11001-A and Ford Part Number C8AZ-11002-A. I do not know what the difference is. There might not even be any difference to those two starters -- I don't know. Your best bet is to post a thread on the 332-428 Ford FE Engine Forum forum giving the casting date and asking some of the guys on there that have old parts catalogs to tell you the exact part number. FWIW, I have also been told that "all Ford FE starters were essentially the same." But there have also been a load of "flywheel/starter motor" problem threads over the years... so it might be the case that "all Ford FE starters look identical, but they're really not." If there was a really subtle difference between the FE starters, that would explain a lot of threads....

[Large Arbor]

So I did another look at the flywheel and it will have to be repaired. Some teeth are ground down just too far for my comfort. I do want to say thanks for all the sage advice you folks are giving me as I have much to learn. I likely will start Saturday pulling seats and everything else out taking painstaking pictures all the way to make sure it goes back together right. I will also make sure I have proper alignment when a new starter goes back in. Thanks again for all the help and any more you are willing to give.

Phil

[patrickt]

Well, FWIW, Delco/Remy Product Search | Delco Remy | Remy says those two starters are the same.... Well, at least they are today, hopefully they were back in 1970 as well.

[ERA Chas]

The OE starter is a 16 pound turd. Here's my IMI hi-torque-8 pounds and bulletproof. Robb's is beautiful but too much $$.
What you'll see;

Good time to send the flywheel out for a .005" or more cut. Mount the block plate, then the f'wheel. Bolt starter into it's nest. Hand test the mesh and shim if needed. This was perfect.
See the scissors under the pan? Use a wood block between.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

The OE starter is a 16 pound turd.
...
Good time to send the flywheel out for a .005" or more cut.

Well what do you want for $50? Maybe he should just replace his flywheel with a light new aluminum one considering he's broken some teeth off the old one, huh?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Well what do you want for $50? Maybe he should just replace his flywheel with a light new aluminum one considering he's broken some teeth off the old one, huh?

No, a ring gear pressed on is all he'd need and probably a cut.
Don't want him spendin' $800 for a f'wheel like you did...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Don't want him spendin' $800 for a f'wheel like you did...

But look how much I saved on my starter.

[Large Arbor]

So I emailed CVR and now they say this:

"On Fords bell housing are matched to ring gear/flywheel. We manufacture
three different types of starters. One with the distance of 2" from
mounting surface to tip of pinion gear. The other one is 2-3/8". The
one that goes out 2-3/8" is a 5055 and 5048. 5048 differs from the 5055
because one hole on the flange is threaded. The 5055 neither hole is
threaded. The one that goes out 2" is a 5056.

1. Which starter did you purchase? If this does not help you do you
have the OEM number of the starter that you require?
2. Is your flywheel correctly matched with your bell housing?"

So my question hear is would 3/8" inch made that big of a difference? I am not sure, but whatever goes back in will match and will not bind or drag. I just have to figure which is the right one.

Phil

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

So my question hear is would 3/8" inch made that big of a difference? I am not sure, but whatever goes back in will match and will not bind or drag. I just have to figure which is the right one.

I don't know which one you need. But note on the installation instructions for the RobbMc starter that he calls for a distance of 1/16" to 3/16" between the pinion gear and ring gear. So, if you stick the nose out an extra 3/8" it's going to run in to trouble, on his starter at least. Here are his instructions: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/ins...nIIstarter.doc If it were me, I'd order both with the understanding that I'd be sending one back, and probably the same day that it came to me.

[Large Arbor]

Patrick,

It appears as though RobbMC has the right one. I will need to take some measurements to confirm. I'll do that on Saturday and go from there.

Phil

[Large Arbor]

So, I contacted Lakewood regarding the Bellhousing / Starter combo and they said this:

"Thank you for the inquiry about the Lakewood Bellhousing. The bell we think you have is Lakewood 15210. This is for the FE to the Tremec Trans. This bellhousing will not work with PRE 1965 Bendix starters. You will will use the starter that is for the FE engines. Not sure if you are being given the correct starters. Those units have been troublefree for some time. We have no documented issues coming from what you describe."

Based on this when I get the OEM replacement, I will tell them 1966, 427 FE version.

Phil

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

Based on this when I get the OEM replacement, I will tell them 1966, 427 FE version.

Phil

... and you will get the wrong starter. If you go to the Delco/Remy search function in my previous post and put in a 1966 Ford Galaxy 500 with the 427 engine you'll see they spec the 25214 for it. That starter looks like this:

[Large Arbor]

Ok Patrick, so thats not the right one. I am still in the guessing game. Here is what CVR said:

Phil,

We discussed your situation here trying to figure out the issue and how to solve it correctly, but the final answer is that we agree with Lakewood, you should go to an OEM starter. How did we come up with this answer? We’ve sold many thousands of these starters and have not had an issue, but it obviously does not work for your set up or for some of the people on the 427FE blogs. But why? We would expect that the pinion gear would travel .400 across the teeth of the flexplate and are roughly guessing from your pictures that the travel is around .200.

We believe that somewhere in your set up there is a manufacturing variation, probably a combination of variations, in the bell housing, aluminum block, flywheel, etc., that is leading to this difference. Something is causing that variation and we are not sure what it is. So what do we do? It sounds simplistic, but a Ford OEM starter has about a ¼” extra throw. It’s basically the nature of the beast, a stock starter as compared to a performance Nippondenso style will have this variation. I wish there was a better answer. Feel free to call me if you want to go into this into more detail."

This frustrates me to no end. CVR cannot get it right. I do not know which OEM replacement is correct, so I have to experiment to find the right one.

Phil

[patrickt]

OK, you know I have an OEM starter, and you know I have the CF aluminum flywheel. I also run a Lakewood BH and Block Plate in front of my TKO600. Use either of those two parts numbers that I quoted in my previous post and you will have the OEM starter that they are talking about -- Delco/Remy says they are both the same part. Do your best to get one that is rebuilt and has the Ford markings on it though, not something in a foreign language that claims to be the same.

[Rick Parker]

IF you want the best:

Product is American

http://tiltonracing.com/product/4000...super-starter/

Call Tilton direct with offset dimensions.

You will never buy another starter!
Because they have a lower current draw you can utilize smaller (lighter) battery cable.

[55312]

Rebuilt OEM starter at NAPA with core if you have one is ~$35. 3 bolts plug and play. I just went through this a year ago with a dieing OEM starter and new Ford Racing flywheel. After tons of advice to put in the expensive high torque units, I figured the rebuilt was worth the gamble. Lots of things I'd rather spend money on than a starter.

Tim

[lippy]

I have one of the better (US made) PowerMasters and it works well. During installation, I did check the extension of the starter gear and overlap with the flywheel, and it was barely adequate, so you should check that too.

[Large Arbor]

Ok, so I pulled the seats, rear panel, carpet, transmission cover, and am already to pull the transmission on Saturday. I took measurements from the bellhousing / block shield to the ring gear and it is exactly 3/4". That is just to the front block side of the ring gear. The CVR starter is only connecting with the ring gear by less than 1/4". So, I will need to find a starter that has axial movement of 3/4" from the shield. That should solve the problem. It was not too bad to remove what I have so far and will try to post pics tomorrow. The new ring gear came in the mail and I hope to have that pressed on Saturday as well. Thanks for all the wisdom shared. More to come...

[patrickt]

I know I have posted the scans from my original Ford Service Manual showing exactly how much contact Ford called for with the starter motor and flywheel, but I can't find it in any of my 15k posts. So, if I don't stumble on it this morning, I'll just rescan and repost them for you. It's handy to have when you pull everything and start really measuring.

[patrickt]

I just like the original Ford service manuals.... Anyway, you can see they called for "the pinion teeth must penetrate to a depth greater than 1/2 the ring gear tooth depth..." as per the pic. The pics of normal wear pattern and small wear pattern are handy as well, as is the note on milled tooth metal.