Starter/Flywheel Damage - Help Need Advice

[Large Arbor]

So, continuing on my starter issues, today the new starter failed. Teeth were ground enough on it and the flywheel has some teeth chewed but not entirely broken. At this point, I think the old starter damaged the flywheel and the new starter was damaged by the flywheel. I know of no other way but to replace both to solve my problem.

So here is my plan to start:

1. Drain oil and radiator fluid
2. Disconnect header bolts
3. Disconnect transmission bolts
4. Disconnect bell housing from block
5. Removed pulleys, alternator (for space)
6. Disconnect fuel, oil and wires
7. Unbolt bolts from motor mounts
8. Pull engine

My question is, do I completely need to remove the transmission to pull the engine or when putting it back. I think I do to allow for the throwout bearing and clutch to be aligned when it goes back together.

Also, do I need to drain hydraulics for clutch?

I will also try to repair some of the oil leaks with the engine out. I was trying to avoid this, but alas it appears I have to pull the engine to get to the flywheel. That means changing exhaust gaskets and any others that need changed.

Appreciate any advice on doing this, as I am slightly out of my league here.

Phil

[patrickt]

You don't need to pull the engine. You do need to pull the transmission.

[Large Arbor]

Thanks Patrickt.

I am trying to figure out the cause. Is it possible that there is just enough play in frame / bolt holes that the starter is vibrating loose.I am not sure how to cure my issue unless it is exactly as I said, (i.e the old starter damaged the flywheel and the flywheel then damaged the new starter.

Pictures should be uploaded.

Phil

[Large Arbor]

Another of the new one. Now another old one...

[Rick Parker]

You may have the incorrect starter for your appplication. It looks like it should engage further into the flywheel, the nose piece for the starter may need to changed, to allow the gear to extend further into the flyfheel IE: more tooth engagement.

[Large Arbor]

Thanks Rick. The starter is the CVR recommended for Shelby Blocks by the ERA manual. Its a CVR brand.

Phil

[Large Arbor]

The CVR does only have two bolt holes, top and bottom and the belll housing has top bottom and one at the 9'O clock position. Its the one that came with the car, thus I replaced it with what came off of it. The old one had about 1,200 miles on it. I tried the other option of a powermaster and the bolt holes did not line up.

Phil

[ERA Chas]

DO NOT pull the motor. Put a scissor under the rear of the pan and pull the trans and bellhousing.
Interior out, you have full access.

[Bobcat]

As ERA Charles and Patrick said , you do NOT need to pull the motor on the ERA . The tranny does need to come out ..... I`ve done this before . Take the seats out and then the tunnel and you can pull the tranny out . I take mine out through the driver`s side door with an engine hoist . Support the rear of the engine and raise it slightly to get to the bell housing bolts , yes , it`s tight , but can be done . lower the rear of the engine some to get the clutch and flywheel off . If you get the car high enough , you`ll have no problem using a torque wrench under there .
For me , it`s a whole lot easier doing it this way .
As far as the CVR starter ,I`ve had no luck with them and also broken the pinion shaft ... went with a RobbMc starter and it fits perfectly ... and all three bolts line up instead of two like the CVR unit .

[Kramer]

Look at my post.. I'll pm u as we'll ...had very similar issues!

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Take the seats out and then the tunnel and you can pull the tranny out . I take mine out through the driver`s side door with an engine hoist . Support the rear of the engine and raise it slightly to get to the bell housing bolts , yes , it`s tight , but can be done . lower the rear of the engine some to get the clutch and flywheel off . .

Bob's right but unless you remove the steering wheel (easy), I find removing the pass door the easier way out and in.

[DanEC]

Before pulling the transmission out get a couple 3 - 4 inch bolts the same size/thread pitch as the transmission bolts and cut the heads off and round the ends to make dowels. You can then remove the upper transmission bolts and install the dowels and they will act as rails to guide the transmission out of the clutch to where you can remove it. They will protect the clutch disc hub from getting sprung and damaged from accidently putting the weight of the transmission on it while trying to wiggle it out and especially when trying to install it back.

Unless you are built like a gorrilla and can just lean over and swing that transmission out of the center of the car, you will probably want to borrow an engine hoist to help lift it out of the car using a piece of angle iron strapped to the top of it from which the lift can be chained to. Another approach would be to cut a piece of 3/8 inch plywood to cover the passenger side floor and entend under the transmission after the mount is pulled the rear raised up high enough. Then, you can drag it back and drop it on the plywood and pull it to the door and manhandle it out from there.

[Large Arbor]

Ok, thanks for all the advice and knowledge. After looking closely at the flywheel, no teeth are broken, some marred, but I think will still work. I am told its a 184 tooth flywheel and that the CVR may be the wrong starter for that flywheel. Danbury explained the differences. The CVR does not appear to engage fully into the flywheel. I will look at a Robb MC starter and see if that helps before I go the full boar route of pulling everything. Fingers crossed.

Phil

[DonC]

X2 for leaving the engine in the car. Pulling the xmsn is really pretty straight forward. Remove steering wheel, seats, drive shaft tunnel, drive shaft. Remove the nuts from the motor mounts, disengage the throttle linkage, disconnect fuel line to carb/FI (jacking up the back of the engine will cause some movement of these and you don't want to tweak them). I use a transmission scissors jack I got from Harbor freight for about $30 that has castors on it to support the transmission from underneath as it moves back off the engine. Big X2 on trimming off a couple of bolts to act as alignment dowels. Makes sliding it out and back in a whole bunch easier with much less chance of damage. Saw Doug use them when I visited ERA. If it's good enough for Doug it's good enough for me. Plywood on the passenger floor another X2. I can lift my TKO 600 out of the car myself if I rest it on the passenger floor once it's off the engine. Suggestion: Once the tranny is out let the engine back down to rest on the mounts so you don't continue to strain anything that may be under pressure when you jack up the back of the engine.
With the engine out and bell housing off you can get a better idea of how the flywheel and starter are lining up and get a good look at the flywheel teeth for damage.
Hardest part of the whole operation is getting the rear inspection plate back in. Those stupid little ears don't want to go back under the roll bar grommet.
It's nice to have a second pair of hands when you're lifting the transmission out and back in and getting it aligned but one person can do it.
DonC

[patrickt]

You know, Phil, a lot of us, both here and on the feforum.com are quite happy with our OEM rebuilt starter. That includes the drag racers that are running much more compression, and much more initial timing, than I am. And they've been running them for decades. Granted, it might not look as sleak and as sexy as some of the new-fangled starter motors, but it still has a certain appeal.... And you can get them for around fifty bucks -- Pep Boys usually has them in stock behind the counter.

[Large Arbor]

Pat,

I am leaning that way. I need to make sure its the right one now for a 184 tooth flywheel. At this point sexy is out the window. I just want it to work without screwing up my flywheel.

Phil

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

Pat,

I am leaning that way. I need to make sure its the right one now for a 184 tooth flywheel. At this point sexy is out the window. I just want it to work without screwing up my flywheel.

Phil

Yep, that's what I got. FWIW, this is my flywheel: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ct...view/make/ford

[Large Arbor]

Pat,

You recall the model number of the OEM replacement?

Phil

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Large Arbor

Pat,

You recall the model number of the OEM replacement?

Phil

Let me hunt around. But surely somebody on here knows the model number for that motor. I think it remained unchanged for pretty much 50 years.

[Jim Holden]

"Before pulling the transmission out get a couple 3 - 4 inch bolts the same size/thread pitch as the transmission bolts and cut the heads off and round the ends to make dowels. "

...and to help you get these dowels out, cut a slot in the end with a cutoff tool so that you can use a screwdriver to back them out after everything is aligned.