Hey Chas - another trivial project - shifter boot

[DanEC]

I've had my toploader slip out of 3rd gear a few times. It was rebuilt by KC and he replaced some of the gears and such so I'm holding out it isn't a worn slider or syncros. My Hurst shifter sits so far below the opt of the tunnel that even with a 3/8 inch spacer under the handle and the transmission shimmed up as high as I dare, the bend of the shifter just sits about the top of the tunnel. That causes the ERA boot to ride pretty high on the shifter stick and boot tension has a lot of leverage to work with. I noticed the other day that when I push the shifter into 3rd, it rebounds significantly - a good 1/2 inch as close as I could measure. Unscrewing the trim ring and pushing the boot up a bit and it only rebounds about 1/8 inch at most when I put it in 3rd.

I ordered a boot from Sunbeam Specialties for a 260/289 Tiger which I understand is thinner and more flexible than most of the boots available. The dealer said that seemed to be pretty much the case as he gets a lot of inquiries from Ford guys for them and he supplies them to Kirkham. So I ordered one.

While waiting on it, I decided to try sewing up my own vinyl boot as an experiment while it's so dang hot outside. I made a pattern and after 2 efforts came up with a pretty nice one that I went ahead and tried. I cut up a wire coat hanger and bent it in circle to fit under the trim ring and sewed it to the outer perimeter of the boot to hold it's shape.





Big improvement. Shift effort even seems less just because no more rubbery action I guess. When I put it in 3rd it stays there. I will probably still try the Tiger boot when it arrives but this seems like such an improvement I may just keep it. Need to go for a test drive now.

[ERA Chas]

Dan,
What can I say?. You are a multi-talented Renaissance Man...
Now I know that you can sew, if you tell me you can cook, I'm moving in.
Excellent solution but I know 427 Street (Frank) will never talk to you again with a non-OEM part without date, hour, part number and Remington fingerprints on it.
As always I have a highly effective counter-solution:
if you hold tension on the handle while touching 5500RPM (in each gear) and just 'stab' the clutch pedal, you will remove ALL resistance in the gears and handle. It's called a 'power shift' and drag racers live by it.
Be ready to catch the sideslip as the tires fight for grip. Bring fresh underwear the first few times but then you will have developed a wicked, shrieking laugh.
Enjoy.

[DanEC]

Well - back from the test drive and good to report that when in third it seemed well anchored there and no hint of "kick out". Pretty sure the boot has been the problem because it happened about every time when I first got it running but after positioning the boot down lower it became less frequent until it was just once maybe every 2 or 3 drives. You can see how low my shifter rests in 3rd gear in this photo.



Just no room for all that rubber.

Yeah, if 428Street was reporting in at all I would be worried about the reaction, but I haven't heard from him in quite a while. Must be off fishing.

It looks like next I may have to re-work the secondaries. I tried Patrick's zip-tie trick and punched it pretty good in 3rd but looks like the secondaries never budged. I guess the jump I'm feeling is just the rear carb primaries opening up. Apparently need some lighter springs in the secondary pots. Not that it felt short of forward thrust however.

Sorry Chase - since I got married 34 years ago I haven't ventured into anything remotely resembling food prep - except grilling a couple hamburgers every few years. And those usually turn out kind of iffy.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I tried Patrick's zip-tie trick and punched it pretty good in 3rd but looks like the secondaries never budged. I guess the jump I'm feeling is just the rear carb primaries opening up. Apparently need some lighter springs in the secondary pots. Not that it felt short of forward thrust however.

You're making great progress. Getting your secondaries to open "just right" will make your car feel "zippier" without really stomping on it -- your low speed performance will actually increase. Make sure the zip tie is not so tight around the shaft that it acts to hold the secondaries closed.

[1795]

I can't believe how low third gear is on your shifter. I am surprised that there is that much variation between cars. Mine sits much higher. The bend in the shaft is at least two inches above yours.

[ERA Chas]

Believe it-this is a (successful) hand-built sports car, 800 in 3 decades-not the Mercedes assembly line.
Appreciate that and enjoy that you have one, quirks and all.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by 1795

I can't believe how low third gear is on your shifter. I am surprised that there is that much variation between cars. Mine sits much higher. The bend in the shaft is at least two inches above yours.

I know - me either. And this is an ERA-prepped Hurst shifter and handle. I bought it used from another ERA owner who was changing to another transmission. I have a layer of insulation on top of my tunnel but that's maybe 1/8 inch thick. Might be something with the mount plate.

[davids2toys]

WOW, I wish mine sat like that. Mine is actually to high. I even put tapered aluminum wedges underneath the handle mount. You could do the same , only wedge it the other way.
In my Unique I had the same problem as you when I went with a new boot. i used to soak it in any petroleum based product and it would shift nice for months and then i would have to redo it, armor all worked fine. Just put it on heavy and let it sit overnight.
Love the boot you made by the way!!! Nice job.Want to sell it?
Dave

[davids2toys]

Do you know the part # for that handle?

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Do you know the part # for that handle?

David

It's apparently an ERA shifter for a Hurst shifter (flat bottom plate to bolt to a flat plate on the shifter. I asked John at ERA to check it's dimensions to make sure and he sent a tracing of their shifter - mine matched it perfectly.

Originally Posted by davids2toys

WOW, I wish mine sat like that. Mine is actually to high. I even put tapered aluminum wedges underneath the handle mount. You could do the same , only wedge it the other way.
In my Unique I had the same problem as you when I went with a new boot. i used to soak it in any petroleum based product and it would shift nice for months and then i would have to redo it, armor all worked fine. Just put it on heavy and let it sit overnight.
Love the boot you made by the way!!! Nice job.Want to sell it?
Dave

I made a 3/8 inch spacer to go under the handle but I didn't taper it because I was a bit concerned that unless the bolts had a flat contact area they might loosen up over time. I also have an ERA-made spacer under the transmission mount. From memory it's about 1/2 inch thick. With the spacer I could still raise the frame mount up another 1/4 inches but I'm already at or above the dimension for the rear U-joint that Bob gave me. Don't know why it sits so low - the mount plate I received with the shifter was a long type that was for a different tailhousing than my transmission as the front leg hit the case. So I cut the leg off and it bolts up fine now - but possibly it mounts the shifter a little low. Shifting action is actually fine and the low 1rst and 3rd positions are fine for use - it's just that since the shifter pivot point is so far below the tunnel top there is a lot of movement involved with the boot.

My hand stitching skills aren't quite up to commercial standards. I would be glad to send you a pattern - possibly even the vinyl cut to the pattern. But, you would be better served to have your wife (girlfriend?) get out the sewing machine. A french seam would really be a nice touch.

I haven't received the boot from Sunbeam Specialties yet (in shipping). I have high hopes for it but will have to see. I may give it the rubber conditioner treatment.

Dan

[cscobra]

I had the identical problems, and the Sunbeam Tiger shift boot solved them nicely and looks "original." However, I sure like the result of your handiwork. You now have two effective solutions from which to choose.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

David

It's apparently an ERA shifter for a Hurst shifter (flat bottom plate to bolt to a flat plate on the shifter. I asked John at ERA to check it's dimensions to make sure and he sent a tracing of their shifter - mine matched it perfectly.



I made a 3/8 inch spacer to go under the handle but I didn't taper it because I was a bit concerned that unless the bolts had a flat contact area they might loosen up over time. I also have an ERA-made spacer under the transmission mount. From memory it's about 1/2 inch thick. With the spacer I could still raise the frame mount up another 1/4 inches but I'm already at or above the dimension for the rear U-joint that Bob gave me. Don't know why it sits so low - the mount plate I received with the shifter was a long type that was for a different tailhousing than my transmission as the front leg hit the case. So I cut the leg off and it bolts up fine now - but possibly it mounts the shifter a little low. Shifting action is actually fine and the low 1rst and 3rd positions are fine for use - it's just that since the shifter pivot point is so far below the tunnel top there is a lot of movement involved with the boot.

My hand stitching skills aren't quite up to commercial standards. I would be glad to send you a pattern - possibly even the vinyl cut to the pattern. But, you would be better served to have your wife (girlfriend?) get out the sewing machine. A french seam would really be a nice touch.

I haven't received the boot from Sunbeam Specialties yet (in shipping). I have high hopes for it but will have to see. I may give it the rubber conditioner treatment.

Dan

Thanks Dan,
I was concerned also about the wedges so i made tapered wedged washers and used longer bolts. Also used locktight on the install . It has not loosened up at all.

[ItBites]

If using tapered wedges and you want the bolts to not be carring a moment from lack of perpendicularity, you can get what are called spherical washers. They are a 2-piece design that handles the substrate not being perpendicular to the bolt axis. McMaster-Carr has them.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by cscobra

I had the identical problems, and the Sunbeam Tiger shift boot solved them nicely and looks "original." However, I sure like the result of your handiwork. You now have two effective solutions from which to choose.

Received my Sunbeam Tiger boot yesterday and it is far, far better than the one that came with my car - 100% improvement. It's not nearly as stiff. I went ahead and installed it to try it out. I still get a little pull back on the stick when I place it in 3rd but not as much as with the stock boot. With the vinyl boot I don't get any pull back. I took it for a short test drive and didn't have any problems with staying in 3rd gear - but it didn't kick out very often so I don't know that this is complete vindication. I think I will stick with it until I have an instance of kicking out of 3rd and if I do, then I will reinstall the sewn vinyl boot.

[davids2toys]

Can you post a pic?

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Can you post a pic?

I will take one of it installed, but I didn't take one of it uninstalled next to the original. In it's natural state it collapsed to about 1/3 of the height of the original one.

[Rick Parker]

I read these threads from time to time regarding this subject and wonder how little tension the shifter, and sliding syncro hubs have on the newer style 5 & 6 spd transmissions such as T5, T56, etc. They all have internal shift rods, and shift smoother and easier but with the OEM Toploader or BW T10 with external shift rods and control box this it would take much more than the effort exerted by the rubber shift boot on the lever to kick it out of gear. It's really hard to comprehend how the shift boot could really be causing this??

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

I read these threads from time to time regarding this subject and wonder how little tension the shifter, and sliding syncro hubs have on the newer style 5 & 6 spd transmissions such as T5, T56, etc. They all have internal shift rods, and shift smoother and easier but with the OEM Toploader or BW T10 with external shift rods and control box this it would take much more than the effort exerted by the rubber shift boot on the lever to kick it out of gear. It's really hard to comprehend how the shift boot could really be causing this??

It's possible that the 3 - 4 detent spring on my transmission is a little weak(?). Keith Craft rebuilt this transmission but it's always possible to miss something. But without the stiff rubber boot it's fine. My shifter sits so far below the top of the tunnel top that the shfter bend is right at the top of the tunnel. It's literally bending over just above the ring and going into forward gears it's pushing the rings of the boot down and forward. Also, the boot top is riding a few inches above the bend because it's so still and that far above the shifter pivot, it doesn't take much resistance due to the lever arm length it's acting on. When I push the shifter into 3rd and release it, the boot was actually pulling it back considerably.

[Rick Parker]

Guys: Is it possible that the shift lever when in a particular gear is very close to the cutout encompased by the chrome ring and when "In the Throttle" the engine torques over along with the transmission and the lever impacts the hole cutout and is "Helped" out of gear?

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

Guys: Is it possible that the shift lever when in a particular gear is very close to the cutout encompased by the chrome ring and when "In the Throttle" the engine torques over along with the transmission and the lever impacts the hole cutout and is "Helped" out of gear?

As close as mine is that is a definate possibility. I have the driver side engine mount thru-bolted but it would still rock over a little and any movement would bring the stick in 3rd or 4th closer to the trim ring.