Era brakes Upgrade

[davids2toys]

Patrick,
Sweet pic, looks great...thanks

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Everyone refers to these brakes as Camaro brakes but I think these are actually generic GM Calipers used on most medium and larger GM cars trough the 70s and into the 80s. Does anyone know if this is correct?

Yes, they are a generally used caliper used on everything from the Camaro and Chevelle to station wagons.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Did Bob indicate if it requires a change in the master cylinder?

Also, I would not be too worried about the single reservoir. Even if a leak develops in the rear system and drains all the fluid out of the reservoir, as long as the front system is tight it will remain in operation. Only if you develop a leak in both master cylinder/line/caliper systems would you lose all brakes. And even then, multiple reservoirs may not help.

A single reservoir is different than a single master cylinder. I have a 66 Corvette with a single piston/circuit master cylinder. With it, a line failure anywhere will leave me totally without brakes (except emergency)

I talked to Doug today. The front brake upgrade is 1400.00 with real pin drive. If you have the adapters or bolt on wheels it will be about 1700.00.

No new master cyl needed, the same MASTER CYL IS USED!

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

I recall purchasing a braided stainless steel brake line kit for a 72-76 Camaro, which would normally be used to replace the two front rubber lines and the one rear rubber line. I didn't need the rear one as the one provided by ERA was already braided stainless steel.

I used the pads provided with the kit, but don't recall if they were graphite or semi-metalic. I believe I have semi-metalic on now.

I am trying to remember where I picked up my brake reservoirs and brackets. I'll try to dig through my Cobra files for the source.

The Girling tin cans look original, but they leak badly around the top cap (even when properly filled) and then the paint peels and the cans rust. I took my originals down to get chromed but the cleaning process bent the thin cans. The aluminum reservoirs I bought look very nice, though they may not be for the "purist".

Doug, In your first paragraph you said "I didn't need the rear one as the one provided by ERA was already braided stainless steel." That ERA rear flexible line is definitely rubber and ERA does not have a braided line replacement for this or know of a part number. Could you re-think this a bit, or look on your car for a braided rear flex line. Maybe we are talking about two different things here?
I am ready to place an order with Summit and this damn thing is holding me up. I can't make sense out of any pics on Summit vs what I need in the car...Ugh!
I definitely want to replace my old rubber hose now while I have all this access to everything with the interior out.
Thanks...Dave

[DanEC]

I don't think Bob is a big fan of braided steel brake lines because a lot of them have questionable safety certification (or none). I would not worry about running a high quality DOT certified rubber line if Bob can direct you to one.

$1700 is pretty pricey. Makes the SSBC brakes look better all the time.

[strictlypersonl]

Lately we been getting DOT-approved S.S. lines from Fragola Performance. Summit has a lot of their line, although we deal direct. They will make custom assemblies.

[cobrajeff]

I ordered my ERA 289 FIA with the upgraded front brakes. At the time, ERA did not offer an upgraded rear brake package. I am not particularly fast on the track, but I have found this system to be adequate for my use on the street and at Open Track events.

I replaced the single plastic brake reservoir with a dual reservoir set of cans:



I eventually dropped the third can, as I have an automatic in my car. I ended up putting the voltage regulator where I had originally placed the third can.



I got my cans from Dave Bean Engineering in CA. They carry all kinds of "spares" for British sports cars.
Dave Bean Engineering, Inc. The Official Vintage Lotus Car Parts Distributor

regards,

Jeff

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Did Bob indicate if it requires a change in the master cylinder?

Also, I would not be too worried about the single reservoir. Even if a leak develops in the rear system and drains all the fluid out of the reservoir, as long as the front system is tight it will remain in operation. Only if you develop a leak in both master cylinder/line/caliper systems would you lose all brakes. And even then, multiple reservoirs may not help.

A single reservoir is different than a single master cylinder. I have a 66 Corvette with a single piston/circuit master cylinder. With it, a line failure anywhere will leave me totally without brakes (except emergency)

Dan,
Check this out, Bob Putnam just posted to his thread: brake/clutch fluid reservoir
Turns out that reservoir has compartments in it, which separate the two brake systems. That is also why the clutch is in the middle, so in essence, that acts like its own reservoir. So the only flaw I see in this system is the fact that if you lose either your front or rear brake fluid you will definitely have no fluid for your clutch except what is in the clutch master cyl. Do you think that would be enough to actually use the clutch to shift gears. I though I remember reading somewhere that every time you push and release the clutch it back-feeds to the reservoir on the release. I could be totally wrong on this, don't know. I hope I am.
Dave

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Doug, In your first paragraph you said "I didn't need the rear one as the one provided by ERA was already braided stainless steel." That ERA rear flexible line is definitely rubber and ERA does not have a braided line replacement for this or know of a part number. Could you re-think this a bit, or look on your car for a braided rear flex line. Maybe we are talking about two different things here?
I am ready to place an order with Summit and this damn thing is holding me up. I can't make sense out of any pics on Summit vs what I need in the car...Ugh!
I definitely want to replace my old rubber hose now while I have all this access to everything with the interior out.
Thanks...Dave

I'd recommend taking your existing lines and matching them for length and fittings to available kits, starting with a 72-76 Camaro. If I recall correctly my ERA rear suspension had a braided flexible line. I could check, but I wouldn't want you to wait for me to report back. I think your best bet is to do your own sizing and matching.

Doug

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Dan,
Check this out, Bob Putnam just posted to his thread: brake/clutch fluid reservoir
Turns out that reservoir has compartments in it, which separate the two brake systems. That is also why the clutch is in the middle, so in essence, that acts like its own reservoir. So the only flaw I see in this system is the fact that if you lose either your front or rear brake fluid you will definitely have no fluid for your clutch except what is in the clutch master cyl. Do you think that would be enough to actually use the clutch to shift gears. I though I remember reading somewhere that every time you push and release the clutch it back-feeds to the reservoir on the release. I could be totally wrong on this, don't know. I hope I am.
Dave

It sounds like the BMW reservoir has 3 sections in it so it functions the same as having the 3 separate Girling cans. That just reinforces that performance or reliability wise - there isn't any advantage with separate reservoirs. I have the 3 cans just for period appearance. Otherwise - I don't think they are worth the effort.

As far as backfeeding to the reservoir when the pedal is released - I think the answer is kind of, but in a proper functioning and tight system what goes back to the reservoir is virtually nothing if anything. The master cylinders I've worked on have a compensating port that releases any pressure in the system as the pedal is released to ensure the brakes don't stay applied. That means a small shot of fluid could go to the reservoir if the rotors kick back the pads due to runout or something. Or if a caliper piston seal has a slight leak, it also allow the master cylinder to fill from the reservoir to compensate for it.

And now I'm dangerously close to exhausting my understanding of hydraulic systems.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

I'd recommend taking your existing lines and matching them for length and fittings to available kits, starting with a 72-76 Camaro. If I recall correctly my ERA rear suspension had a braided flexible line. I could check, but I wouldn't want you to wait for me to report back. I think your best bet is to do your own sizing and matching.

Doug

OK Doug,although my skills in this plumbing area, size, nomenclature etc, stink, I will do the best I can.
Thanks

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

It sounds like the BMW reservoir has 3 sections in it so it functions the same as having the 3 separate Girling cans. That just reinforces that performance or reliability wise - there isn't any advantage with separate reservoirs. I have the 3 cans just for period appearance. Otherwise - I don't think they are worth the effort.

As far as backfeeding to the reservoir when the pedal is released - I think the answer is kind of, but in a proper functioning and tight system what goes back to the reservoir is virtually nothing if anything. The master cylinders I've worked on have a compensating port that releases any pressure in the system as the pedal is released to ensure the brakes don't stay applied. That means a small shot of fluid could go to the reservoir if the rotors kick back the pads due to runout or something. Or if a caliper piston seal has a slight leak, it also allow the master cylinder to fill from the reservoir to compensate for it.

And now I'm dangerously close to exhausting my understanding of hydraulic systems.

LOL
Yes, except for the clutch. With your system (3 cans) you could lose all you brake fluid and still have all your clutch fluid.
As far as releasing the pedal., I was talking about the clutch, not the brake. I do understand what you are saying about the brake returning a little fluid.
My question was, do you think that if you lost your clutch fluid because of a brake line leak in the single reservoir system, would you have enough in the clutch master to shift the car for a while? If it was to return some fluid to the reservoir every time you released the pedal, you would be screwed.
Dave

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by strictlypersonl

Lately we been getting DOT-approved S.S. lines from Fragola Performance. Summit has a lot of their line, although we deal direct. They will make custom assemblies.

Great Bob. So do you have a rear braided brake line you could sell me or provide me a part number for?
Thanks

[davids2toys]

Jeff,
Nice pics and info...thanks

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

LOL
Yes, except for the clutch. With your system (3 cans) you could lose all you brake fluid and still have all your clutch fluid.
As far as releasing the pedal., I was talking about the clutch, not the brake. I do understand what you are saying about the brake returning a little fluid.
My question was, do you think that if you lost your clutch fluid because of a brake line leak in the single reservoir system, would you have enough in the clutch master to shift the car for a while? If it was to return some fluid to the reservoir every time you released the pedal, you would be screwed.
Dave

If I understood Bob correctly, it sounds like the clutch has it's own fluid storage in the BMW reservoir. Without having seen one, what I suspect is that there are two dividers in the bottom half of the reservoir that creates 3 fluid chambers. As long as the fluid level in the reservoir is maintained above the dividers, all the chambers stay full. If the front brakes loose a caliper seal and fluid, the reservoir level would fall to the level of the dividers and the fluid in the front brake chamber would continue to fall until the master cylinder sucks air. But the rear brake chambers and the clutch chamber would still have their fluid chambers full up to the dividers and continue to operate normally and have some fluid reserve. Not sure if this is correct but sounds like the approach.

You should not lose the clutch due to losing one of your brake circuits. You should not lose the brakes due to losing the clutch circuit. All three have some independence and redundancy in terms of reservoir storage if one does develop a leak.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

If I understood Bob correctly, it sounds like the clutch has it's own fluid storage in the BMW reservoir. Without having seen one, what I suspect is that there are two dividers in the bottom half of the reservoir that creates 3 fluid chambers. As long as the fluid level in the reservoir is maintained above the dividers, all the chambers stay full. If the front brakes loose a caliper seal and fluid, the reservoir level would fall to the level of the dividers and the fluid in the front brake chamber would continue to fall until the master cylinder sucks air. But the rear brake chambers and the clutch chamber would still have their fluid chambers full up to the dividers and continue to operate normally and have some fluid reserve. Not sure if this is correct but sounds like the approach.

You should not lose the clutch due to losing one of your brake circuits. You should not lose the brakes due to losing the clutch circuit. All three have some independence and redundancy in terms of reservoir storage if one does develop a leak.

No, not at all. there is only one divider in the bottom. The clutch part of the res is the upper section. The clutch line draws off the middle of the res, (by middle I mean height-wise), so that is basically the clutch compartment. Now the bottom of the res just has a separator wall going across it, thus creating two more compartments. At the bottom of each, there is a brake line, one going to the fronts, and one going to the rear. Now if you blow either your front or your rear brakes, you will definitely lose all your clutch fluid in the res because the brake lines and compartments are located and draw from the bottom! I just found this pic online. You can't see the bottom two lines because they go directly into the foot-box on their way to the master cyls. EDIT: For some reason the site wont upload the pic, first time I have ever had that problem??? If you google images "ERA cobra brake clutch fluid reservoir", it will be one of the first pics. Here is the address.

https://www.google.com/search?q=era+...id%20reservoir

OK, so if you understand it better now back to my question. which was, do you think that if you lost your clutch fluid because of a brake line leak in the single reservoir system, would you have enough in the clutch master to shift the car for a while? If it was to return some fluid to the reservoir every time you released the pedal, you would be screwed shortly because of the brake leak.
Dave

[DanEC]

Ok - I see what he meant now on the reservoir. If you lose a brake circuit - provided your clutch master and slave cylinders are not leaking - you should still have clutch action without problems. What fluid is pushed by the master to the slave when the clutch is disengaged, will return in equal volume to the master when it's engaged. Plus there will be a bit of brake fluid still up in the line from the reservoir running down to the master cylinder to cover minor fluctuations due to fluid temperature, etc. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[davids2toys]

Sounds good to me too...LOL
Here is the thread connected to that pic. Short and sweet
Help! - Leaking Brake Fluid Reservoir

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

I'd recommend taking your existing lines and matching them for length and fittings to available kits, starting with a 72-76 Camaro. If I recall correctly my ERA rear suspension had a braided flexible line. I could check, but I wouldn't want you to wait for me to report back. I think your best bet is to do your own sizing and matching.

Doug

Do you have the ERA rear with outboard brakes or the standard rear with inboard brakes? I have the standard rear, so perhaps we are talking to different animals here?
I have just gone thru 2 full days and totally struck out on getting a braided line for the rear. Even Pegasus could not adapt fittings to one of their lines because the female has no circlip provision and the nut is 9/16 and will fall right thru the tab on the frame. Camaro is NG because the threads are 7/16 and I need 3/8.
Also talked to Bob Putnam 2 days ago, he had no info for me either

[Large Arbor]

If you upgrade the brakes you should add the LED tail lights according to Patrick and I. It heps blind the people behind you at night!

Phil