ERA Toploader Re-seal/build

[DanEC]

Needed a new project so decided to go through my leaky toploader and re-seal it and re-build it as necessary. I loosened up the transmission and jacked the car up and put a moving dolly under the bellhousing to lift the back of the engine and transmission up for clearance.



Removed the transmission to BH bolts, inserted lengths of all-thread and then slid the transmission back and on to the floor.





Then put my 67 year old back to work and lifted the iron lump out thru the door. I wish Ford had copied GM and used an aluminum case.



This is one of the leak issues (cover vent) that I would like to find a better solution to. All that lube sitting on top of the gasket is just a cover leak that almost no amount of RTV cans stop. Muncie's don't have a vent that I can recall so I wonder if this thing really needs a functional one?



I've rebuilt a Muncie and a Mopar Torqueflite so feel pretty OK about tackling this one.

[RodKnock]

I love a good powertrain technical thread, not some ridiculous dumb spinner tool thread.

Is that wide ratio 2.78 TL? Any thoughts about a lower (higher numerical) 1st gear?

[patrickt]

Maybe a fresh clutch/pp/TOB while you're in there?

[DanEC]

It is a small input wide ratio. Transmission actually has been working fine. I had a couple kick out in 3rd initially but after replacing the heavy rubber boot on the shifter with a proper one from the Sunbeam Tiger guys it has only happened once and may have been due to clearance with the cutout in the tunnel while accelerating thru a corner. But once I get it apart I'll give every thing a good once over. I may go ahead and replace the input because it seems a bit undersize at the tip - not sure if wear or what. I had more thousands clearance in the pilot bushing than I though it should. But I don't think I will go to a large input because then I'll have to get into the clutch which I don't really want to do. I have too many ultra-low mileage/nearly zero wear, Vette clutches and flywheels sitting under my work bench now without starting a Ford collection.

[RodKnock]

I see a magnum wheel and a redline tire, sorry, but what's your Mopar again? Or is that a Ford?

[1795]

Dan,

Regarding the vent, on my wide ratio top loader in the ERA I never really noticed any fluid coming out of the vent during street use. With the close ratio top loader in the race car spinning at higher rpms on a regular basis there is venting and tranny fluid getting expelled, which is why I run a hose and catch can for the tranny. Would hate to suggest that you could do away with the vent, as if pressure does build it will seek the path of least resistance, which will probably be one of the new gaskets you installed.

Jim

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I see a magnum wheel and a redline tire, sorry, but what's your Mopar again? Or is that a Ford?

It's a 67 GTX 440 Auto, power, AC. It's my semi-luxury muscle car.

Originally Posted by 1795

Dan,

Regarding the vent, on my wide ratio top loader in the ERA I never really noticed any fluid coming out of the vent during street use. With the close ratio top loader in the race car spinning at higher rpms on a regular basis there is venting and tranny fluid getting expelled, which is why I run a hose and catch can for the tranny. Would hate to suggest that you could do away with the vent, as if pressure does build it will seek the path of least resistance, which will probably be one of the new gaskets you installed.

Jim

That's a good point about any pressure buildup w/o a vent would just force it out other places. I haven't seen any come out the vent but one of my persistent leaks has been around the top plate cover gasket. As you can see the top of the gasket was just pooled in lubricant. I may just have to RTV the heck out of the gasket - top and bottom.

[davids2toys]

great thread, looking forward to following along. This will be something for one day to fix my leaker, but way down the road because way behind on other things in life and on the Cobra! I did the vent from David Kee. Fun job and looks cool. There was a thread on this and I posted pics after the job was complete but I can't find it. I did find this one but don't see the pics. Leaking Toploader gasket

I will try to post pics to this thread

[davids2toys]

Here is a few.
It would not let me upload my other pics because it said I had already uploaded them to the other thread like I thought I did. Those pics seem to be gone from the other thread??? Is there a way to re-post them to this thread and maybe on the other one to?
Dave

[DanEC]

Dave - I may try one of those vents. I wonder if it could be installed in the top plate with a nut-sert or something instead of the tailhousing? As I understand it you can block the top plate vent with one of those??

[davids2toys]

I think part of the whole idea is to vent it from a location with less pressure. Yes, you do block off the vent hole in the top plate. Did you read the old thread?

[DanEC]

I scanned over it and remembered it - but I will go back and re-read it. Plan to start pulling it apart today. I may start a separate thread in the Transmission forum to cover what I learn or anything unusual I run in to.

Trying to recall but seems I remember that Muncie's vent through the front bearing and front retainer. They use a slinger and drain back path in the front retainer to prevent leakage. Sort of surprised that a Toploader can't vent the same way but maybe I'll discover why when I pull it apart.

I initially posted here in case any ERA guys were contemplating pulling their transmission and looking for a way. I installed mine with an engine lift because I only had dowels at the time for a Muncie which uses larger bolts. I had a lift in the garage and didn't want to run to the store for some all-thread for dowels. But using the dowel rods makes it easier to get the transmission out from under the dash and back on the floor. It keeps all the weight off of the disc and guides it. And then it's just a matter of hoisting the heavy SOB out of the car.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I installed mine with an engine lift because I only had dowels at the time for a Muncie which uses larger bolts.

I think of dowels as being made of wood. We call rods that are threaded on one end "single end studs" and they do make that job much easier.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I think of dowels as being made of wood. We call rods that are threaded on one end "single end studs" and they do make that job much easier.

My Muncie dowels are about 4 inch long bolts with the head cut off and the ends rounded so they are smooth. For the Cobra I needed about 8 inch long dowels and lacking energy to look for 9 inch long bolts I could cut the heads off of, I bought all-thread and cut to length - so yeah, you can call them rods if you like.

[DanEC]

Decided to just use this thread - don't think this is going to be a long running story. Using a book for a go-by that I've used before by Paul Cangialosi who owns 5Speeds. The book is High Performance Manual Transmissions. I simply followed along his pictorial steps.

I may have discovered a contributor to my wagging speedometer when I removed the speedo drive gear. It's a little chewed up so I'll replace it.



One thing I've learned about working on transmissions is you need a couple pair of heavy duty snap ring and c-clip pliers. They are well worth seeking out and buying. There were 5 or 6 pretty heavy duty c-clips I had to remove.



I started out trying to diligently retrieve all the detents as I went along but I didn't have much luck fishing them out with a magnet. In this case I raised it with a magnet, drove out the shaft and pushed it down into the shaft opening and retrieved it with a magnet.



As I progressed this became a less orderly process and I ended up retrieving the rest of them from the case when the gear set were all out.

My input/fourth gear pilot tip is pretty worn and a loose fit in the pilot bushing so it's on my list to replace.



After that it's just a matter of pulling c-clips, driving the main shaft forward out of the rear bearing and removing the main gear set. A lead KO hammer worked pretty well to drive the main shaft out of the rear bearing. I could have used my hydraulic press but it came out with the hammer.

After that the book was kind of sparse on getting the main shft and main gear set out. I ended up pulling the front c-clip, removing what would fit through the front of the case and then the remainder would tilt up and lift out and forward through the top.





Countershaft and reverse shaft/idler gear in bottom of case.



Everything on main gear train laid out in order it goes together (except I have the gears mis-numbered - ignore the tags. Having a dyslexia moment)



I've bought parts from D and L Transmissions back east and I'll try to talk to Larry the owner and send him some pictures of the gears and slider to see what he thinks. I've had one kickout of 3rd gear since I went to a lighter rubber boot from the Sunbeam Tiger store. It was while accelerating in a corner and I suspect my tunnel cutout may have pushed on it under engine torque and in a turn. But, I may replace it just to be safe. They look pretty typical of used gears to me - not new and not bad. it's been shifting fine so I wait and see what Larry has to offer. If anyone has an opinion on one let me know.

This is 1rst.



This is 2nd



This is third



The reverse & 1/2 slider and the 3/4 slider.





Until I get parts here it sits.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by DanEC

My Muncie dowels are about 4 inch long bolts with the head cut off and the ends rounded so they are smooth. For the Cobra I needed about 8 inch long dowels and lacking energy to look for 9 inch long bolts I could cut the heads off of, I bought all-thread and cut to length - so yeah, you can call them rods if you like.

The fact that you dead lifted 100lbs, while being eligible for medicare, and without having to go to the ER for a ruptured disc, is pretty impressive.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The fact that you dead lifted 100lbs, while being eligible for medicare, and without having to go to the ER for a ruptured disc, is pretty impressive.

yup, could not agree more. My poor already herniated back is killing me just thinking about it!!!

[DanEC]

Seems like I remember a Toploader is about 95 lbs. That does beat messing with an A833 Mopar - I think it weighs about 115 lbs. I've been helping a friend assemble a restored 69 Hemi Roadrunner 4 speed and our rather husky drivetrain mechanic buddy was helping when the motor and transmission were assembled to be dropped in. He was just quietly sitting there watching us when suddenly he just rose to his feet, snatched up that big lump of iron, walked over and slammed it into the bell housing of the Hemi, all the way in, all in one motion. The owner and I were just standing there with our jaws slack.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The fact that you dead lifted 100lbs, while being eligible for medicare, and without having to go to the ER for a ruptured disc, is pretty impressive.

Originally Posted by davids2toys

yup, could not agree more. My poor already herniated back is killing me just thinking about it!!!

Yes, me too, about 5lbs is my limit now, L5S1 ruptured, FBSS.

Gary

[HTM101]

Those external snap rings are fairly beefy. I tried 3 different flat-faced pliers and none fit the snap rings adequately, making removal a small fight.

I finally found these pliers that fit the angle-cut of the snap rings and make removal and re-installation a lot easier.