ERA Toploader Re-seal/build

[DanEC]

Yep - those c-clip pliers look like they will work too.

Came across a few more interesting things. My parts guy suggested checking the shift forks for wear. He said they should not have more than about 20/1000 clearance in the slider groove. Mine were worn pretty unevenly and has as much as 50/1000 clearance so looks like I will replace those.

He thought the gears looked OK, some wear. He thought they should continue to work fine but suggested I might want to update the synchronizer/slider assemblies since the new ones are all torque-lock type.

And I have one odd-ball detent in my shift rail assembly. I came up with one hatchet or tent shaped end detent. I should have either two, none or all hatchet end. So I may have to hunt up one or two of them.

And I think I figured out why all of my shift arm shafts were leaking to various degrees. I ran some 600 sandpaper on a dowel rod through them a few times and then examined the bores with a light behind them. They all had some random deposits on the bore walls - kind of like crusty grease or something. I tried scrapping them with a small screwdriver and they scraped off. So I got my gun cleaning equipment out and found a 20 gauge brass brush fit snugly in the bores and I bore scrubbed them with bore cleaner. That took the hard deposits right off and left them nice and clean. That worked well enough and I took a 30 cal brush to the detent shafts and a 12 gauge brush to the reverse idler shaft and left them all nice and clean.

[tboneheller]

Do not forget or discard the pin that goes in the shifter detent bore. It looks very similar to one of the cluster gears rollers. I have seen where people discard that pin thinking that it was one of the rollers included in the rebuild kit.

[DanEC]

Ready to start back together after the last of my parts arrived.

I installed a breather vent in the tail housing so I can close the one off in the cover.



I bought a new cover from David Kee that doesn't have the vent drilled (and the cover is straight as compared to my old one.



I did a little polishing of the detent reliefs in the shafts just to clean them up. They are apparently machined pretty rough on the original shafts so I guess a high degree of smoothness is not an absolute necessity.



Sticking with my current gears and input on the advice of the transmission parts guy I use - Larry at D and L Transmissions. I am replacing the shift forks due to wear - he had some NOS ones. I'm also replacing the synchronizer hub assemblies - these are not NOS but they are the Tork-Lock design type which helps prevent gear kick out.



And as a precaution I ordered new detent springs from David Kee which are a little longer than the ones in my transmission. Wire size and coil spacing seems pretty consistent so I suspect they will stiffen up the detent action a bit. Also ordered a new detent pin for the 3/4 position to replace the single, slightly short hatchet head detent pin in my transmission. Not sure but the short spring and short hatchet head detent pin may have, along with the heavy rubber boot on the shifter originally, contributed to the few 3rd gear kick outs I had. The new spring is the shiny one on the left.


As soon as I get caught up on yard work I'm going to start putting it back together.

[1795]

Dan,

Looking nice. Can't wait to hear how it preforms. With the vent on the tail housing, you may want to consider running a vent hose underneath the tunnel and coming up to the engine compartment. I doubt that you would need a catch can, just place a breather filter in the end of the hose to keep foreign material from making it's way into the transmission. The gap between the top of the oil in the shaft and the tali shaft vent is fairly small and increases the risk for oil being expelled due to pressure. If oil is expelled the air current under the car could distribute the oil on your rear brake rotors.

You could always wait and see if it is an issue; it may not be. However, it is a lot easier to place that hose now when everything is apart, then to try to take care of it later.

Jim

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by tboneheller

Do not forget or discard the pin that goes in the shifter detent bore. It looks very similar to one of the cluster gears rollers. I have seen where people discard that pin thinking that it was one of the rollers included in the rebuild kit.

I've got it. It stayed in the shaft.

[DanEC]

Jim - this breather appears to have some sort of sintered metal filter in it - sort of like those factory Holley fuel inlet filters I think. Also, the vent passage on this is under the hex head so I don't think hooking a hose up to it would work very well. I'll keep an eye on it but I hope that filter media will hold down the possibility of oil spray making it's way out. If it gives me any trouble I might have to replace it with a pipe thread nipple that I can slip a piece of rubber hose on to, and extend that up by the engine and put the vent in the end of it.

[1795]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Jim - this breather appears to have some sort of sintered metal filter in it - sort of like those factory Holley fuel inlet filters I think. Also, the vent passage on this is under the hex head so I don't think hooking a hose up to it would work very well. I'll keep an eye on it but I hope that filter media will hold down the possibility of oil spray making it's way out. If it gives me any trouble I might have to replace it with a pipe thread nipple that I can slip a piece of rubber hose on to, and extend that up by the engine and put the vent in the end of it.

Dan,

Mine was on the the tail housing as well and you are right, if you have to do a vent hose you will have to replace the breather with a pipe thread nipple, that is what I had to do. Good luck and hope everything goes well.

Jim

[DanEC]

Slowly working on assembly in between yard chores and a respiratory infection. Thought I would post these pictures for those who have heard of torque-lock slider syncros but haven't actually seen them.

This is the original slider out of the transmission - straight splines.



This is the new torque lock slider - undercut splines to lock in the gear engagement teeth under load and coast.



I had a little trouble with this particular syncro unit as it appears that the splines that engage the main shaft had been broached straight except for about the last 1/16 inch length (+/-) on the forward end where they appeared to take a last minute twist. It would not slide on the shaft in the required direction at all. But I turned the unit around and it slid on all the way up to the last fraction of inch and stick. I could stick a light behind it and look down the splines and see that the shaft splines were being forced over tight against the splines in the gear. The shaft splines were obviously straight. But anyway, after an hour or so of fine filing with small files and trail fitting, I finally relieved enough at the end of the slider spline sides that it slid on with a little light tapping.

I noticed one difference on the reproduction 3/4 syncro slider for the fork engagement - the originals had a stair stepped front surface and a slopped surface on the back. The reproduction is slopped front and rear - matter of fact I couldn't find anything to differentiate what would be front or rear on the slider. The hub I could determine front and rear. I'm hoping those stairsteps in the front were not for some sort of clearance issue - guess I'll find out.

Aside from the shift interlock detents the second biggest puzzle has been figuring out which direction is forward on the syncro hubs. Fortunately I removed the originals as a unit and left them that way. On the 1/2 hub the thin width bearing surface went forward and the broader width one to the rear. I found some literature to confirm this. On the front 3/4 syncro hub I found the broad bushing surface faced to the rear and the narrow surface width one to the front. This matched what I took out and the polish wear marks on it.

So, the reverse idler is back in the case and the countershaft-gear unit is resting in the bottom with the shims. Looks like next thing is to drop the main shaft back into the case, install the input and rear bearing and then the shift forks and shafts.

[Gaz64]

That's a good idea, hope it works out for you.

[xb-60]

Dan - what oil have you been using in your Toploader?
Mine is yet to be fitted and filled with oil.

Cheers
Glen

[DanEC]

Transmission lube is a touchy subject for a lot of antique/muscle car owners. The old 4 speeds used fluids that were old standards, old Mil Specs, etc that seem to have been consolidated over the years to equal GL4. But GL5 was introduced years ago and is said to be a superior product for hyphoid gears like differentials. There are stories, rumors, myths, supposed lab reports that GL5 will deteriorate brass like blocker rings. But, others say GL5 is the closest thing to meeting and exceeding the original specifications. And although there is said to be some truth to the issue of brass deterioration with GL5 it's said to only happens at temperatures that transmissions don't operate in. And then there are the synthetics and custom lube products.

I experimented with synthetic in my old Muncie for awhile but the case started sweating the stuff - dry to the touch but always looked like it was wiped down with WD40 or something. I found NAPA still sells GL4 (Sta Lube 85-90) and I bought 4 gallons of it a few years ago and use it now in my two old 4-speeds. Honestly, GL5 is probably of no harm and even superior so I'm comfortable with either one. I don't really think the synthetics are a good idea in the old style transmissions and except maybe under track or heavy use conditions the custom products are not necessary. We are pretty temperate in Arkansas so the 75-90 or 85-90 seems fine. I noticed in my 67 Plymouth service manual the other day that they even suggested ATF in their old A833 4-speeds for cold climates - although how they got that stuff to stay inside one after it had a couple years running time on it I'll never know.

But everyone has an opinion on the subject.

[PeteH]

I am about to do the same re build on a 28 spline toploader. Just bought the David McKee kit, and a second and third gear as the engagement teeth are somewhat worn, like yours. If Im into it that far I'm replacing anything that might be a problem.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by PeteH

I am about to do the same re build on a 28 spline toploader. Just bought the David McKee kit, and a second and third gear as the engagement teeth are somewhat worn, like yours. If Im into it that far I'm replacing anything that might be a problem.

On Toploaders reproduction parts seems to be the quandary. It's not like the situation for GM Muncie transmission. For Muncies, there are Italian-made gear sets and parts that are absolutely beautiful and better than the originals. I did my 427 Corvette transmission last year and bought a new Autogear case and complete M-22 gear set and reassembled an amazing, high quality transmission - far superior and stronger than the originals. The only original parts I re-used was the main shaft, the tail housing and the side plate. But they even make HD Autogear side plates (with ball bearing shifter forks) and tail housings if so inclined. Ford guys should have it so good.

For Toploaders from what I can find out, the situation for replacement parts is not near as good. The guy I use for parts (D and L Transmissions) is a hands on rebuilder and he's not too high on the current state of Toploader reproduction parts and he recommended using what originals were still serviceable or another good original if it can be found. He said he has had a lot of issues with the new inputs as they seem to have more backlash than the originals - which means the gears aren't meshing as well. But, he said most of them will work. I bought a few minor things from David Kee and I don't know where he sources his parts but I'm sure since he builds transmissions that he is sourcing the best that's out there. Good luck.

[xb-60]

Thanks for the oil advice Dan.
It seems that GL-4 is still relatively easily available here (Adelaide, SAus), as is of course GL-5.
I checked on DK's website as well; he's recommending 80W-90 GL-4 too, so GL-4 would be the obvious choice.

Cheers,
Glen

[DanEC]

Well, I've been tied up with yard chores but tried to get back on assembling the Toploader today but had a fail. Tried to get the rear bearing on with heat as advised but didn't make it. Heated it to about 400 deg and got it on about half way before it seized and ended up having to remove it again. After that it I didn't like the way it looked or spun any longer so decided to spend $18 on a new one. There was some sign of scoring in the bearing center from the shaft so I decided to approach this differently. This time I'm going to polish the shaft with emery cloth and get it good and slick and also use emery cloth on a large socket to polish and oversize the bearing bore a thousand or so to remove most of the interference fit to where I hope to be able to tap it on with a brass punch. If it stops moving I'll find a way to get the monster inside my 8 ton press and press it on with a piece of pipe.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Well, I've been tied up with yard chores but tried to get back on assembling the Toploader today but had a fail. Tried to get the rear bearing on with heat as advised but didn't make it. Heated it to about 400 deg and got it on about half way before it seized and ended up having to remove it again. After that it I didn't like the way it looked or spun any longer so decided to spend $18 on a new one. There was some sign of scoring in the bearing center from the shaft so I decided to approach this differently. This time I'm going to polish the shaft with emery cloth and get it good and slick and also use emery cloth on a large socket to polish and oversize the bearing bore a thousand or so to remove most of the interference fit to where I hope to be able to tap it on with a brass punch. If it stops moving I'll find a way to get the monster inside my 8 ton press and press it on with a piece of pipe.

Clean up the shaft a fraction, get a new bearing, and press it on in a press.

Heating up a new bearings in this situation is not my cup of tea.

Gary

[ERA174]

My experience with toploader rebuild has not been extensive, which means take my advice at your own risk. I did not alter my main shaft to facilitate the assembly process, instead I increased the inside diameter of the bearings. The inside diameter of the bearings is easily increased with a wheel cylinder hone. I kept honing the bearing until it would slide on the shaft with minimal effort.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by ERA174

My experience with toploader rebuild has not been extensive, which means take my advice at your own risk. I did not alter my main shaft to facilitate the assembly process, instead I increased the inside diameter of the bearings. The inside diameter of the bearings is easily increased with a wheel cylinder hone. I kept honing the bearing until it would slide on the shaft with minimal effort.

Working on the bearing was my main plan but I hadn't thought about a hone and I happen to have one of those down in my tool chest - thanks for the suggestion. No reason this thing has to be that tight of a fit to the point it scores the bearing bore up while trying to drive it on.

[Gaz64]

The interference fit is so the inner race doesn't spin on the shaft.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

The interference fit is so the inner race doesn't spin on the shaft.

Right but this thing is way, way beyond taking care of that.