Gt-40 Cooling (or Lack Thereof).

[Jeff Frigo]

Blackjack:

If I remember correctly, you bought the car about a year ago from somebody else. Have you tried to call him and ask whats going on? How many miles did the car have on it when you bought it?

Maybe it has always been a problem? Just trying to help.

[Bob Putnam]

Jack,

It sounds like the water pump's impeller is loose on the shaft.

But - first check your ignition timing from idle to 4000 rpm.

The electric water pump we used very successfully is from Davies-Craig but I'm also looking at the Stewart Components piece which may be easier to retrofit.

[CobraEd]

Jack,

I had the vacume advance arm slip off the post in my distributer plate once. it jammed the plate in a WAY retarded mode. The engine immegiately got very very hot.

Retarded timing can be a major source of engine heat even if the cooling system is fine.

Ed

[BLACKJACK]

THANKS BOB,

YOU'RE KIND LIKE THE DENTIST WHO INFORMS HIS PATIENT THAT "THE TEETH ARE FINE, BUT THE GUMS HAVE GOT TO GO".

IF IT'S THE WATER PUMP, - - THAT SHUTS DOWN THE GT-40 FOR ANOTHER SIX OR EIGHT MONTHS UNTIL THE NEW HOUSE IS BUILT. NO WAY I CAN DO IT IN A BURNED OUT GARAGE WITH NO ELECTRIC POWER, HOLDING A FLASHLIGHT BETWEEN MY TEETH. CHANGING TO THE NEW RADIATOR AND COOLING FANS THAT WAY WAS BAD ENOUGH.

ANY THOUGHTS ON MY OTHER QUESTIONS??

GIVEN THAT THE COOLANT/FILL TANK IS THE SAME HEIGHT AS THE INTAKE MANIFOLD DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO PULL PLUGS ON THE MANIFOLD?? IF SO, WHICH PLUGS??

DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO PULL THE RADIATOR AGAIN AND HAVE A PURGE VALVE INSTALLED ON THE TOP?? BY THE WAY - - THERE'S A REALLY GOOD IDEA FOR THE"NEXT GENERATION" OF "IMPROVED" RADIATORS.

IF I INSTALL ONE OF THE ELECTRIC WATER PUMPS - I HAVE TO "GUT" THE MECHANICAL WATER PUMP ANYWAY - IS THAT CORRECT??

IF THE PROBLEM WAS IGNITION TIMING:

1. WOULD THE H2O TEMP NOT COME BACK DOWN DURING LEVEL CRUISE??

2. WOULD IT BE SO DIFFERENT WITH A 30F CHANGE IN AIR TEMP??

THANKS, AND HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

PS: BOB - I'M NOT SURE YOU READ ALL OF MY EARLIER POST BUT, YES, I WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE THE IGNITION SWITCH. ANYTHING THAT GETS THAT HOT IN A CAR IS A PROBLEM.

[Cobranut]

Jack,

Another thing occurred to me today while driving home, listining to the Explorer ping on the overpriced crap they call gasoline.

How much compression does your 302 have? And does it have a relatively mild cam?
You may need to run a higher octane gas than the junk that comes from the pumps these days. A radical cam with a lot of overlap will bleed off some cylinder pressure and lessen the octane requirement, but only to a point.

After my cam break-in, I ran my motor for a total of a couple hours to heat cycle everything several times, and check for leaks.

I ran out of gas, so I tried running it on 93 octane pump gas.
It heated up to 200 degrees in about 5 minutes on that junk, and this was under no load at 2000 rpm.

I got another jug of 110 octane and she would run all day at 180 deg.

Try some Cam-2 or other high octane race gas and see if it makes a difference. You may even be able to mix it 50% with 93 octane.

Also, if you need to do any major work, I have a large shop with a lift. You're welcome to bring it down and I'll help any way I can to get you on the road. (But only if I get a ride)

Later,

[Bob Putnam]

Jack,

Retarded ignition timing will make the engine run hot all the time, and once the engine gets to a critical temperature, the water pump will cavitate, making the whole problem cascade. I hope that's your problem.

If it's not, you can add the electric pump as a supplement without gutting your current pump. I would mount either pump in the front compartment initially, but the Aussie pump fits great at the engine. With a front pump, you can use the fan thermoswitch in the radiator to control the electric pump (to full speed) and maybe run the pump at half-speed at lower temperatures, or just use the thermostat-control that is optional with the Aussie pump.
Confused?

[ERA535]

BLACKJACK-

If you can speak to the person who you got the engine from I would also ask them if the block was ever filled - drag racers sometimes put a material in the cooling passages of the block to stabilize the cylinders when wall thickness is questionable.

This will affect how much coolant can circulate through the block and will have an effect on how well it cools - in fact it would behave in much the same way you are describing.

While this is only a POSSIBILITY, it does make the thought that you have to replace the water pump seem much more palatable, doesn't it?

[John McMahon]

I know the owner that Jack bought the car from. This is not a crazy built motor. It is a 302 with a mid-range solids cam. So nothing exotic was done to the motor.

Jack,

I'm far away...but I'll open up my garage to you if you need the space for water pump repair for as long as you need it.

Hopefully some closer can make the same offer. I would concentrate on the pump and a possible slug of air in the system.

[BLACKJACK]

HEY, GUYS,

THANKS VERY MUCH TO ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR EXCELLENT SUGGESTIONS.

IT PROVES, ONCE AGAIN, THE INCREDIBLE BRAIN POWER AVAILABLE ON THIS FORUM.

MY GAME PLAN - FOR NOW - IS AS FOLLOWS:

1. ATTEMPT TO EVACUATE THE AIR FROM THE SYSTEM USING A VACUUM PUMP.

2. INSTALL A DAVIES-CRAIG ELECTRIC WATER PUMP AS A SUPPLEMENTARY PUMP. ("JACK LEGGED" INTO THE FRONT COMPARTMENT INITIALLY - IF IT WORKS A MORE ELABORATE INSTALLATION WILL FOLLOW).

3. CHECK THE ENGINE TIMING AND SPECS - THOUROUGHLY.

4. REMOVE THE "BRAND NEW" ALUMINUM RADIATOR AND HAVE IT FLOW TESTED ON A TEST BENCH. WHILE I'M AT IT I'LL HAVE AN AIR BLEED VALVE INSTALLED AT THE TOP AND A DRAIN VALVE INSTALLED AT THE BOTTOM.

5. IF ALL OF THE ABOVE FAILS MY PLAN IS TO DRIVE THE "FRIGGIN" THING OFF OF THE 14TH STREET BRIDGE INTO THE POTOMAC RIVER. THAT'LL COOL THE SUCKER DOWN.

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL,

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[Bill Wells]

Blackjack:

Better get that good ship, the SS GT 40 , over to the local Coast Guard station for a boating safety inspection before you take it water skiiing !!! hehehe...good luck . I know how frustrating it must be to be 'so close yet so far (at the moment)". hang in there, otherwise some fisherman on the shore will reel in one nice fish, about 40 inches tall !!! Bill.

[CobraEd]

Jack, I was thinking about Bobs comment about the slipping impeller in the water pump. I just realized that that poor little pump has to not only pump the coolant thru the engine and radiator, but also all the way to the front of the car and back. Maybe that is too much for a non-positive displacement type pump. The suplimental pump you are installing might just do the trick.

Ed

[BLACKJACK]

YEAH, ED,

I HOPE IT DOES IT.

THE WATERPUMP IS A "SNOW WHITE" PUMP. SHORTER IN LENGTH BUT ALSO A HIGHER DISPLACEMENT, I BELIEVE.

I'M GOING OVER TO THE OLD HOUSE AFTER THE "GREASE-UP" AT THE VIENNA INN TOMORROW TO TAKE SOME MEASURMENTS AND TO SOME PRELIMINARY WORK. LAST SATURDAY, WHEN WE HAD THE CARS OUT FOR THE CHASSIS TUNE UPS IT RAN FINE - STAYED ABOUT 180F MOST OF THE TIME, THE NIGHT BEFORE I TOOK IT OUT TO FRONT ROYAL AND IT GOT TO ABOUT 200 OR 205F IN RUSH HOUR TRAFFIC ON 66 WEST. THE REST OF THE TIME IT RAN 165 TO 180.

THEN MONDAY - IT WENT NUTS. THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES WERE THE OUTSIDE AIR TEMP WHICH WAS APPROX. 65 ON FRIDAY, 70 - 75 ON SATURDAY AND 80 - 85 ON MONDAY.

HOPE TO SEE YOU AT THE GREASE-UP TOMORROW. I STILL HAVE YOUR MAGAZINE WITH THE KENNE BELL ARTICLE. I'LL BRING IT.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[Daniel Jones]

I have a Pantera which is similar in layout to the GT-40 with radiator
in the front and engine in the back. While the radiator is in the front,
the pressure and recovery tanks are mounted near the engine. Panteras
got a reputation for cooling problems due to several different problems
but when the system is operating as designed, it cools quite well.
Off the top of my head, in no particular order, here are the cooling
problems that I've heard of from the guys in the pantera club:

fans slow down - This happened on my car. One of the original electric
fans began slowing down and the car started running hot. I installed
a new pair of fan motors and it now runs cool in 100 deg F weather with
the air condition on. A stroboscope can be used to check the fan RPM.

bleeding - Bleeding is a trick on these cars. It took me 7 or 8 bleeding
cycles to get all the air out when I did a cam change. My radiator has a
hollow bleed screw with an intersecting hole. The screw passes through a
banjo fitting to a line that runs all the way back to the recovery tank.
This is supposed to keep the system bled but first you must get all the air
of the system.

radiator - The stock radiator is a 2 pass design with an internal baffle.
These baffles can work loose, resulting in much of the radiator being
bypassed.

improperly wired electrical fans - It's not unusal for a new owner to find
one or even both of the electric fans wired up to turn backwards. Just
because the fan is spinning doesn't mean it's moving the air in the proper
direction.

distributor pin - This one is very common. What happens is the oil pump
gears momentarily jam (often due to sucking up a small piece of decayed
oil seal) and the pin that locates the distributor gear shears, allowing
the gear to rotate and then jam. The result is timing is retarded a bunch,
leading to sluggish performance and overheating.

water pump - Panteras use a stock Ford 351C pump and it doesn't seem to
be a problem even with the additional distance the coolant must travel.
The best replacement pumps appear to be the Edelbrock aluminum pumps. They
use an impellor with a properl curved vane rather than the usual replacement
pumps with a paddle whel in a box.

thermostat and block ring - This is specific to 351C's (and 351M/400's)
but I'll mention it here anyway. The Cleveland thermostat is unique with
a shoulder which is sized to match the brass restrictor ring in the block
which other thermostats do not have. Using a Windsor thermostat (which the
parts counter monkeys will give you half the time) will lead to overheating
because coolant will bypass the radiator.

sucker versus puller fans - I still have the pusher fans but some in the
Pantera club claim the sucker fans are superior, FWIW.

I noticed you mention a Snow White waer pump. I have something in my database
(might be from Dave Wharren, I only show Dave) on those pumps. I'm not sure
if any of this applies or not but I'll list it here just in case:

"The pump is made by Snow White LTD. (4743 Lamona, Fresno, Ca. 209-255-0527).
It fits either Cleveland or Windsor blocks. The plate that bolts to the motor
is aluminum, about 1" or so thick. The pump comes from an Opel GT of all things.
One thing not on this setup is the warm up by-pass that is normally an internal
function on a standard Cleveland pump. It allows water to flow through the
engine without going to the radiator. Flow during warmup is through the brass
orifice below the thermostat until the thermostat opens. The hole is then plugged
off by the bottom of the thermostat.

There are 2 possible solutions. Snow White tells you to drill a 3/16 or 1/4 hole
in the thermostat to allow a small flow past the thermostat until it opens. I've
been running my engine on the test stand with this configuration, and it seems to
warm up pretty quickly with a smooth transition as the thermostat opens.

Another way would be to drill and tap the 1" thick plate so an external fitting
could access the "recirc" hole in the block. The pump has a fitting on it's inlet
that is used for the heater (I think!) on the Opel. It's plugged for my application,
but a hose could be run from here to the tapped hole in the plate to provide the
by-pass.

This setup is supposed to be about the same length as the Ford "shortie" pump for
the Windsor's. The Opel pump has a 2" suction opening in it. "

Hope This Helps,
Dan Jones

[BT SNAKE]

Blackjack,
If you have a heater core in the car it sets higher than the radiator. You could be trapping lots of air in there. Make sure
you open the heater valve before trying to fill it. If you don't
the air stays up in the heater core. I think the best thing to
do is buy the vacuum fill device and make sure all of the air
has been purged. If the problem persists then you most likely
have a bad water pump. If the car runs the same as it did
before it started overheating then I wouldn't worry to much
about the timing thing. Don't forget about the thermosthat.
Before I install a new one, I drop it into a cup of boiling
water to see if it functions properly. I have bought brand new
ones that did not open. Before I put the thermstat in I
tke a garden hose and put in down the opening and turn the
water on full blast untill it comes out the hose that attaches to
the thermostat neck.
Jack, you gotta get that car to the fling ! So far as I know it's
just Wayne, Jay, and me with GT40s soooo we need more
not less.
Now somebody out there in cobraland must live near you
with a good place to work on a forty. Gee, who would pass
up an oppurtunity like that.

Keep at it BJ, you'll get it.

Hersh

[750hp]

BJ,
This may be irrelevant to your situation, but my Cobra started getting hot seemingly without explanation. It turned out the elec fans started drawing more amps than they had previously(likely due to age, possibly bad connections). I had a self-resetting fuses in place for the fans. As the fans drew more and more power, they overheated the thermal fuse. When this triggered, the fans would stop. With the fans stopped, the fuse cooled down and reset itself, so the fans would start again.....

Fans on - fuse overheats and triggers.
Fans turn off - fuse cools and resets.
Fans back on - overheat fuse and trigger it.
Fans off again - fuse cools and resets.....
On and on and on!

Do you have self-resetting fuses?

[BLACKJACK]

DAN,

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR ALL THE GREAT INFORMATION. IT GIVE ME A LOT TO THINK ABOUT AND WORK ON. MAYBE I JUST HAVEN'T CYCLED THE BLEED PROCESS ENOUGH. IT SHOULD BE COOLER TOMORROW AND I'LL TRY IT SEVERAL MORE TIMES.

HERSH

I'M GOING IN TOMORROW AND USE THE AIR EVACUATOR PUMP AND I'M GOING TO DO SOME PRELIMINARY MEASUREMENTS FOR AN ELECTRIC ATER PUMP - JUST IN CASE.

I SHOULD CERTAINLY HAVE IT READY FOR DVSF. I'M TRYING TO GET IT READY FOR CARLISLE ALSO AS A SORT OF TEST RUN FOR DVSF.

750HP,

GOOD POINT. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE SELF RESETING. THE COOLING FANS ARE BRAND NEW, BUT I STILL OUGHT TO KNOW.

THANKS, GUYS AND Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[Jim Holden]

BJ:
My experience with the Snow White was marginal also. My understanding (which is admittedly very foggy at this point) is that it was originally out of an Opel... Or something like that. There is a SVO water pump that is (according to Doc Dick ERAGT2036) a lot better.
Next time around (and there will be a next time) I will not go with the Snow White.

Jim Holden

[pavulon]

Blackjack,
Did you ever get this problem sorted out? If so, what was the final solution?
Scott

[BLACKJACK]

HEY, PAVULON,

JUST YESTERDAY I GOT BACK TO THE GT-40. SO FAR I HAVE:

** INSTALLED A "NEW & IMPROVED" ALUMINUM RADIATOR.

** INSTALLED IMPROVED COOLING FANS.

** INSTALLED THE DAVIES-CRAIG ELECTRIC WATER PUMP.

** INSTALLED TWO GANO COOLANT FILTERS - ONE AHEAD OF THE RADIATOR AND THE OTHER BETWEEN THE RADIATOR AND THE ELECTRIC PUMP.

** PULLED THE NEW ALUMINUM RADIATOR BACK OUT OF THE CAR AND HAD "BUNGS" WELDED AND THREADED FOR BLEED VALVES - AT THE TOP OF THE RADIATOR - AND A DRAIN VALVE AT THE BOTTOM.

MY RECHARGEABLE DRILL RAN OUT OF STEAM AND I HAD TO STOP "ONE HOLE SHORT" OF BEING ABLE TO WIRE UP THE D-C PUMP AND TRY IT OUT.

YESTERDAY - 97 DEGREES IN THE GARAGE - I DRILLED THE LAST HOLE AND CONNECTED EVERYTHING UP. PUT IN 3 BOTTLES OF WATER WETTER AND A COOLANT MIX OF 25% PRESTONE AND 75% DISTILLED WATER. CRANKED IT UP, WAITED FOR THE TEMP TO RISE ENOUGH TO OPEN THE THERMOSTAT AND OPENED THE NEW BLEED VALVES ON THE TOP OF THE RADIATOR. NOTHING CAME OUT -- -- NOT A DAM%ED DROP. THE BUNGS FOR THE BLEED VALVES WERE WELDED AND DRILLED INTO A CAVITY THAT WAS NOT A PART OF THE COOLANT CHAMBER OF THE RADIATOR. ABOUT THAT TIME I INVENTED SEVERAL NEW ADJECTIVES AND I'LL BET (I HOPE) A LOT OF PEOPLES EARS WERE BURNING.

AS IF TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY IT APPEARS THAT I HAVE A "PIN HOLE" LEAK IN THE BOTTOM OF THE RADIATOR AT A WELD SEAM.

I SPENT SEVERAL HOURS TRYING TO BLEED THE AIR OUT OF THE SYSTEM THROUGH THE TOP HEATER HOSE - AS BEFORE. I HAD TO GIVE IT UP AGAIN WHEN IT GOT TO DARK TO SEE.

LONG STORY SHORTENED: I'M JUST ABOUT THE VERY SAME PLACE I WAS SIX MONTHS AGO - EXCEPT THAT I'M OUT ABOUT 100 PLUS HOURS OF LABOR AND OVER $1500.00 IN CASH. AND THE OLD RADIATOR DIDN'T LEAK.

I'M NOT FAR FROM WISHING THAT THE DAM% THING HAD GONE UP IN THE EXPLOSION.

THE GAME PLAN NOW IS:

** KEEP ON TRYING TO BLEED THE S.O.B. THROUGH THE HEATER HOSE.

** PUT SOME "BARS LEAK" INTO THE COOLING SYSTEM AND HOPE IT STOPS THE LEAK IN THE NEW RADIATOR. (YEAH - THAT ONE - THE ONE WITH THE "BLEED VALVES TO NO WHERE").

I'LL KEEP YOU INFORMED OF ANY PROGRESS. AT THIS TIME THERE IS NO WAY TO GET IT TO DVSF.

ANYBODY HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH "BARS LEAK"??? ONE CONCERN IS IF IT WILL "CLOG-UP" THE FILTER SCREENS ON THE GANO COOLANT FILTERS.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[John McMahon]

Sorry to hear of the continued problems jack.

Wanna trade it for an unfinished 289FIA????