Brake Squeal Issue

[chuckbrandt]

Thanks ERAChas,
That's great news. I'll order a set today.

Chuck

[ERA Chas]

The SILENCE continues...

[Bruce Edwards]

Glad to hear that the shims fixed your problem. I have a question for you as you are an ERA owner how are your seats bolted in? The 289 FIA I am finishing up has no brackets under the floor to hold the seat in place. It looks as if it is made to bolt to the very thin aluminum floor with no other support system. Is this how yours is held in place? Having been a car that was hit and had the seats break loose from the floor this is bothering the hell out of me.

[ERA Chas]

I have a very early 427 car. The method in use at the time was an aluminum rectangle of floor material welded in place to the floor at the hole locations. No captive nuts either. The seat tracks thru-bolt with washers/nuts.
The harness strap ends go right into the frame with very beefy anchors. I also installed a sub strap with a gusset of my own. This whole thing sort of holds my a$$ in the car.
I have a buddy with a very recent FIA and will report his seat attach method.

[Bruce Edwards]

Just not real happy with the set up. I am planning to add a support system to floor but just wanted to hear what others have done.
Just hard to believe that with all of the engineering on the car that the seats would get no attention.
Thanks.

[ERA Chas]

I understand your reluctance after a shunt like that.
Yes, the mounting on FIA's is similar to mine. It seems the two forward holes are just thru the floor. The other holes catch some steel angle iron used to bridge the "outriggers'.
As a fabricator, you will surely fab a system you're happy with.
I've put my faith in the 5 point harness.
Good luck,

[Bruce Edwards]

Granted the belts will help to hold you and the seat in place however not everyone will use the full belt 100% of the time. And a lab belt on it's own will not keep you in the seat if the seat breaks loose from the floor. I know! Had an older car that got hit in the rear and it only had lap belts. Tore the seats right out of the steel floor and flipped my friend almost out of the car. If I had not had the steering wheel in my hand I would have been in the back of the car like my friend was. As it was I was pushed so far back I could not reach the brake to stop the car for over 2 blocks.
Trust me it was no fun AT ALL!

[strictlypersonl]

We could mount the seat so that it would carry the whole weight of the car but, in the event of an unbelted sudden stop, your butt would still slide right off.

A little Velcro twixt your pants and the seat cushion perhaps?

How 'bout using the belt (and shoulder harness) all the time?

[Bruce Edwards]

It would seem to me that mounting the seat in such a way that it could not move in an accident would be a safety issue as well as just plan smart.
Come on Bob why is it when I ask a simple question you take it as in insult to your cars design?
Let me think back to all of the cars I have restored over the years and see if I can think of just one that bolted the seat to the thin steel floor without some kind of support system under it. No not a one.
Let me think back to all of the kits I have built over the years. No not a one till yours. My Dad's Hunter is bolted to a 1/4 steel plate floor, Dave's Classic is bolted to cross supports made of steel, the home made car I swapped a Chevy out of and installed a 427 and jag rear was bolted to a steel support system , the 2 EM cars I did were both bolted to a steel frame section, the MG kit on a VW frame or the Porsche kit on a VW frame were all bolted to a steel floor with a support system and I could go on.
Yet your car is bolted to one out rigger spar on the front out side edge and the other three holes bolt to a very thin aluminum floor.
I like most of what I have seen on your car Bob and the few things I have found and called you or Doug about have for the most part been minor issues and I do not think we need to open up that area on this forum even if it has lead to your updating some of the things on your web site so as to clarify some weaknesses in your manual. After all it is you in your manual that says to get in touch and you would be happy to help.
You jumped on me about the steering rack before we even started this car and now you jump on me again about a safety issue.
This is not a sudden stop issue. Having built the first Cobra back in the 80's I know what attention it brings on the road and all of the lookers that are watching the car and not their driving. I have a customer to think about that will be driving this car. I wish to be sure that I do everything I can to be sure that in the event of an accident he is a safe as he can be in YOUR car. After spending the large sum of money he did with you and paying me to put the car together with his investment now over $55,000 in the car I feel I owe it to him to do the best job I can to insure his safety. After all I kind of figure we are BOTH libel if the seat breaks loose and sends him or his passenger bouncing out of the car and down some road.
I was only looking for some input from others on this site as to what they may have done nothing more.
I will reinforce the seat mount area with a steel runner to help spread the load over a larger area of the floor so the seat is less likely to break free or cause stress cracks around the seat holes as aluminum likes to do when it is flexed over time.
Bob just so you understand I have enjoyed building this car for the most part and it is well made. Simply because I have a few areas of concern that I pointed out to you by way of emails or phone calls does not mean in any way I am not happy with the general design of your car. It is very well thought out in many areas. It just seems that a bit of extra material welded to the seat mount area to help keep the seat in place would be a good idea.

[strictlypersonl]

Bruce,

It was not taken as an insult - only as a misleading statement about what is require to mount a seat.

In an accident, our seat mounting must only restrain the force of the seat (which weighs about 12 lbs). The occupant exerts little extra force on the seat itself (except down). The belts are the major restraint system for the body, unless you use the steering wheel and dash for that purpose...

The seats in production cars are much, much heavier, and require proportionally stronger mounting.

[Thorin]

Bob,

You really do have patience.

thorin

[DonC]

Bob:
My sentiments also. The seat attachment is designed to hold the seat in place only. The retention comes from the belts and if you break them or the mounting points the last thing you're going to have to worry about is the seat retention. The belts and mounting points are in the 5,000 lb tensile strength range. That's enough to strain you through the belts before they break.
DonC

[ERA Chas]

Any chance to work on the shim noise problem? Mine have been perfect under heavy use. I've been lucky, for a change.

[Melzer]

That's why he's the man qualified to answer these questions, (not to mention the heart of gold and dedication)....

Ok, 'nuff said.....regarding brake issues.....if the brake balance bar is set correctly with the right amount length difference as stated in the manual of 1/4" favored to the front AND the bias is set correctly as on page 121, how CRITICAL is this side to side bias adjustment with the washers and it's affect on front/rear braking.

I'm having a tough time on an older car that requires a 'standing ovation' just to get the brakes to halt the car. Been there done that with manual brakes years ago, so I'm not wimpin' out.

What's your suggestion?

[strictlypersonl]

First of all, make sure that the balance bar is angled when not loaded as shown here. Most high-pedal pressure problems come when the balance bar is bottoming out, causing the front brakes to get very limited pressure.

If the balance bar setup is OK, try a new set of front pads. Don't use "competition" pads - they tend to be very hard and don't work well when cold.

Changing one shim on the balance bar changes the balance roughly 6%. i.e. from 60/40 to 63/37. I wouldn't change the stock shim setup until I changed the pads.

[Melzer]

Bob,

Thanks for the heads up on the balance bar/bias.

Mel

[chuckbrandt]

Hey Guys,
I got the Wilwood shims installed and they really helped. All but eliminated the squeal (and I can't be sure what's there isn't coming from the back). Anyway I recommend the wilwood shims part 300-8460 for the sierra or wilwood upgrade front brakes.

Chuck

[ERA Chas]

Glad it worked for you and me.
Wonder why it's not helped DonC who has equipment similar to us.
Don, you out there?

[DonC]

Still here but haven't had a chance to work on the brakes since I put the shims in. Will probably be another couple of weeks before I get to them again.
My next step is to take Bob's advice and remove the calipers and try the silicon blob on the pads and reinstall them.
I'll let you know how it comes out.
DonC

[ERA Chas]

Hope the silicone works for you but don't throw the shims out just yet.
Still can't figure out why they're not working in your case.
Good luck and post result.