Hard Starting

[WillB]

My 351W (ERA 2019) is about 3yrs. old. It has been difficult to start whenever "hot." Now it won't start (turn over) even if warm. I suppose it's possible the battery is undersized (I'd have to move it to the trunk to get any bigger), or the starter can't overcome the compression? when warm?

It's easy to "push start" in 3rd gear whenever this happens, but that is annoying and requires finding some willing pushers.

Any suggestions?

[GlynMeek]

There was a thread a week or so ago about "difficult to start when hot", with a number of GREAT suggestions, but most of them were to do with carb issues. If it won't turn over when warm, but will when cold it sounds to me like a battery issue, rather thana starter motor. I'd get your battery checked out first, but if you 'think' it is undersized, it probably is!!!

What sort of battery do you currently use, and where is it mounted?

Glyn

[strictlypersonl]

Have someone check the current draw and voltage when cranking. Also, check the battery voltage (and at other points along the feed cable) when there's a medium load. Turn the lights and radiator fan on for the test. If the battery is good, you should see over about 12.2V where the cable attaches at the starter solenoid.

[Chaplin]

If battery is good, and it starts when cold, but not when hot, but will start when hot if you pop the clutch, sounds like the starter is suffering a bit of heat soak. Time to wrap the primary pipes and/or get a new heavy duty starter.

[WillB]

It was hard to start (when hot) even when the battery was brand new. The battery is older now (in Fla. old is 3 yrs). But the FIA limits the battery to what will sit on the shelf in the wheel well (small). Course, originally the FIA had a smaller motor than what this car has....so, while I might just get a new battery and solve the problem short term, maybe I should upgrade the starter at the same time....would give me something to buy with my $600 stimulus check ($250 for the starter, $100 for the battery, and $250 for 6 gallons of gas).

[WillB]

Thanks also to StricklyPersonal, always good advice...if I get up enough enery to get that car up on jacks again and remove the passenger tire (and cover to the battery), I will check the voltage, but as an aging Cobra owner, that might be a while. Last time was when the toploader locked up in 3rd (a somewhat frequent event) and it took me from June 'til November, to jack it up, remove the floor, reset the links, and put it back down....and that was quick for my age.

[Pete Munroe]

WillB,

I have ERA #2027.

Ran the fattest battery cable I could force through the chassis holes. Just short of welding line. Think it is a "#1 gauge" size cable. A kit from Jegs ?

The engine is a 289/347" with 10.7 compression, the starter a new geared after-market.

Battery is the largest Exide Gel-Cell that fits...600-700 amps cold cranking. Never the least issue with cranking hot or cold.

I DOUBT your issue is battery size.

If your car is FIA 289 #2019, you didn't assemble it?...that car was built in the late 90's. Time to check everything from battery forward.

Check the battery cable size. The run from the rear fender to engine is a LONG cable run...use AT LEAST the cable size ERA recommends.

Verify battery size, condition. Clean terminals, cable ends, etc till they shine and light lube with WD-40 or something.

Starter may be marginal. Brushes, amature, etc.
SOLENOID could be bad.

Is your engine NEW, REALLY high compression, real tight, etc?

Do not assume anything...brand new electrical stuff can be bad.

Hang in there,

Pete

[Barnsnake]

I had the same problem. After checking all the cables, connections, and solenoid for voltage drops, and installing a stronger battery, no change. I installed a new high-torque gear-reduction starter and it spins-over like crazy at any temperature.

[WillB]

I am thinking the high torque starter (Barnsnake-thanks) might solve the problem. Any suggestions on make or model (Summit Racing has them but mostly for Chevy motors) or source?
The car was built in 2005 (Pete), cables were installed at the factory, but we did have a fire at the "cutoff" when the battery was installed and ERA sent a new cable to replace the melted one. I will likely check the voltage before buying a starter, but it is a half day job getting the car up 3" to get a jack under it, removing the wheel and the fender panels (wish I had a lift) and right now the swimming pool is more inviting than the garage floor.

[Pete Munroe]

Will B,

Am surprised how the chassis numbers run...my #2027 dates to 97/98, and a few other FIA's I have seen that are years newer had much higher numbers, go figure. They saved you a low number!

Try www.Jegs.com

Jegs seem to have more Ford engine parts than Summit, but you can comparison shop both on line.

I have a geared starter, logo says "CVR" I think I got it from Jegs. Looks pretty much like the Tilton unit. Has worked fine for 13K, 5+ years.

Pete

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by WillB

I am thinking the high torque starter (Barnsnake-thanks) might solve the problem. Any suggestions on make or model (Summit Racing has them but mostly for Chevy motors) or source?
The car was built in 2005 (Pete), cables were installed at the factory, but we did have a fire at the "cutoff" when the battery was installed and ERA sent a new cable to replace the melted one. I will likely check the voltage before buying a starter, but it is a half day job getting the car up 3" to get a jack under it, removing the wheel and the fender panels (wish I had a lift) and right now the swimming pool is more inviting than the garage floor.

Bill-
I'm not sure if the 289 body style is any different, but changing the starter on the 427 body style is really easy. No need to remove to fender panels or the wheels. The longest part is getting the car on jacks. And I was pleasantly surprised to find that the high torque mini-starters weigh about 1/4of what a stock starter weighs. Once you get the car jacked up, you should be able to have the starter swapped in 30 minutes or less- maybe 45 if you really take your time and take a coffee break.

[xracerbob]

A little pricey, but I love mine:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...t_starter.html

[ack fia]

How ironic,
I just installed a Summit gear reduction Mini starter on the 302 in FIA #39. I went with their part SUM-820055. It cost $149 plus $11.75 "handling charge" but shipping was free.
I was able to eliminate the firewall solenoid and the only piece I had to make is a new (longer) #55 wire down to the new starter.
I did have to rotate the mounting plate by one hole for block clearance (there are about a billion different holes available) and you have to put the top bolt in place before you put the mounting plate back on the starter motor.
I have the original 1999 battery mounted in the right fender and other than an annual cleaning, I've never had a problem.
It sounds great, spins the motor fast and I am a happy camper.

[WillB]

The 289 body has the battery inside the passenger fender, so when it won't start, it's take the wheel off & remove the fender panels covering the battery. Thanks for the help, BTW, my car is 2097 not 2019 (had to get the papers out to make sure...been a while since I looked the number up...in fact, been a while since I "visited" Club Cobra).

[RICK LAKE]

WillB Bill keep the starter soleniod. This will take the spike loads better that the solenoid on the starter and the ignition switch. Also you will not have to change the wiring. To install a mini starter, you are going to have to check the airgap between the gear of the starter and the bottom of the tooth on the ring gear. You want no more than .040" if possible. I have run a Tilton for 10 years. I did have a problem with the bell housing being centered on the motor, mine was .038" out. Over time it will wear out the gear on the starter. I had to replace mine. I have my headers rapped to keep the heat down in the engine compartment. I also have a shield to partial cover the starter. When I broke the car the last time, this starter is strong enought to drive the car on the trailer in first gear and not damage any thing with a good battery. It also went off the trailer and into the garage the same way. Mini starter are great, they just crank slow, and you have to be a little careful not to flood out the motor trying to start it. Rick L.

[WillB]

I've never replaced a starter (obviously from the following question). So, how do I test the gap between it & the flywheel?

[Don]

I use the same starter mentioned by xracerbob on my AMX, excellent:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...c_starter.html

[RICK LAKE]

WillB Depending on access and weather you have the car together or not with the trans in, You want to engage the soleniod of the starter without the motor spinning. On an FE motor I tighten down the motor block plate and mount 3 starter bolts to this. There is a wire that goes from the starter soleniod to the motor, unhook this so the motor will not spin. I have found that a thick paperclip works great for stick between the extented drive and the flywheel teeth. Adjust to get the right clearance with either rotating the mounting plate, adding shims, or removing shims. You can just stick it in and try it. If the engage and release sound OK, you are in the ballpark. If you hear the grinding or whining sound, you are too close or too tighen in clearance. I did mine with the trans and bellhousing out of the car, motor was still in. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

WillB Depending on access and weather you have the car together or not with the trans in, You want to engage the soleniod of the starter without the motor spinning. On an FE motor I tighten down the motor block plate and mount 3 starter bolts to this. There is a wire that goes from the starter soleniod to the motor, unhook this so the motor will not spin. I have found that a thick paperclip works great for stick between the extented drive and the flywheel teeth. Adjust to get the right clearance with either rotating the mounting plate, adding shims, or removing shims. You can just stick it in and try it. If the engage and release sound OK, you are in the ballpark. If you hear the grinding or whining sound, you are too close or too tighen in clearance. I did mine with the trans and bellhousing out of the car, motor was still in. Rick L.

Jeez Rick, I've even done this job before and I still didn't understand your answer!

EDIT -- Here, I ripped this from the ERA site, hopefully Bob P. will forgive me.

From. Bob Heacox rheacox@harbornet.com
Re: Tech info for installing a Tilton starter in a Ford FE engine with a Lakewood bell housing with engine in car

After I destroyed one ring gear and after attempting to cut a hole in my bell housing with a hole saw, in extremely tight quarters, I came up with a method of determining, or estimating functional starter pinion to ring gear depth and backlash
As your instructions state, measure ring gear to starter mounting surface. Measure, or better yet you supply in your instructions, distance from face of starter pinion gear to starter mounting surface on starter. In my case the distance from the starter pinion face to the ring gear was about 0.200" which was too much by at least 0.060" Since there were no shims to take out I had to mill at least 0.060" (I milled off 0.100" to gain greater depth and still be within your spec ) The indexing ring had to be removed too since the starter was going to have to be moved towards the crankshaft in order to reduce the gear backlash. I used an end cutting milling bit in a drill press and it worked very well Home shop gearheads like me and other people who buy your starters need to have info like this because machine shops are not always open at midnight the night before a race

Now for checking depth and backlash Cutting a hole in your bellhousing is a *****, to say the least, and you still can't adequately check what you need to check through a hole when the engine is in the car. So, here is what does work very well:


Take the mounting plate off of the starter
Bolt the mounting plate to the engine pushing it as far away from the crankshaft as it will go and against the mounting bolts before the final tightening of the mounting bolts. Re check this when you get to #7.
In order to keep the starter pinion fully extended, the spring fully compressed, and to eliminate, if you handle it carefully, the backlash in the spiral gear, completely compress the spring by pushing the starter pinion gear through the bearing and starter drive gear assembly as far as it will go and then wrap electrical tape around the exposed spiral gear about 20 times.
Blue the starter gear and place the bearing/gear assembly into the starter mounting plate, bolted to the engine, until the bearing is fully seated The starter gear is now positioned in the ring gear as it would be if the starter were turning the engine over during starting
Carefully, at first until you develop a sense of what you are feeling, rotate the engaged starter gear back and forth to feel the backlash and to imprint, in the bluing, how the teeth are contacting, i e Depth of teeth into gear towards crankshaft and depth of gear engagement towards the back of the car
Take the bearing/gear assembly out and inspect the blued gear under good light With a couple of minutes of practice you can determine very accurately how much of the starter gear is engaging the ring gear
Now for checking the backlash Since the starter positioning ring on the starter mounting plate has been removed, during the above mentioned milling to position the starter closer to the crankshaft for more engagement, and so the starter can be moved closer or further away from the ring gear, the starter mounting bolts are now the only things to maintain the position of the starter. So, before checking the backlash, loosen the bolts holding the starter mounting plate enough to move the starter mounting plate as far away from the engine as the bolts will allow and then re-tighten them Clean the bluing off of the starter gear until it is clean and dry and reinsert the starter gear/bearing assembly into the starter mounting plate and gently rotate it back and forth and feel the backlash. A range of 0.010" to 0.030" is fairly easy to develop an estimated feel for. Rotate the engine and check in several crankshaft positions. Elongate the mounting holes in the starter mounting plate, if necessary, to adjust the backlash.
Since I wouldn't trust that the starter would stay in position with only bolt pressure holding it, I drilled one of the holes oversize, pressed a round piece of stock into the hole and redrilled it undersize and then filed it to the exact fit in the correct position
This procedure prevented me from having to remove the engine from the car to set the starter up accurately with any degree of confidence

[RICK LAKE]

patrickt Thanks for the chops busting. Today is my lucky day, see other thread about tires. Rick