ERA 753 - Final Assembly in Progress

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

Fred (Dad),

Will you adopt me?

Sincerely,

Your long lost son, Dean

P.S. A really clean install...love the custom brackets!

Dean,

Sure, as long as you have big garage to put a shop and lots of cars, I'd love to adopt you! Thanks for the kind words.

- Fred

[Bobcat]

Fred ... some questions on the Canton unit . I talked to my engine builder ( Robert Pond ) and looked at my dyno sheets . During the pulls , oil temps never got above 160 degrees F. Robert said it was real hard to get the temps any higher and that the aluminum blocks just seemed to run cooler on oil temps .... which brings me to my question . Do you know what is inside the Canton unit that could allow the oil to heat up to the 170 degree range while idling ? Sounds like there is some type of orifice that they force the oil to go through . GPM through an orifice equals pressure drop equals heat generation ... and in this case , it sounds like a good thing ( here I`m being an anal engineer again).
I went for a drive Sunday ( 80 degree day ) and never got over 160 while cruising . Robert didn`t sound too concerned about being below 180 to 200 degrees on the oil .
I also went to Canton`s web site and couldn`t tell what was in the unit .... however , depending on your outcome , I may have to get one .

Bob

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Do you know what is inside the Canton unit that could allow the oil to heat up to the 170 degree range while idling ? Sounds like there is some type of orifice that they force the oil to go through . GPM through an orifice equals pressure drop equals heat generation ... and in this case , it sounds like a good thing ( here I`m being an anal engineer again).

I don't think that's right. The instruction sheet says that it simply bypasses the oil cooler until the oil reaches 215 degrees. I don't believe it increases the temperature by reducing the volume passage, increasing pressure through an orifice, etc. I can see problems if it tried to do that. http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...PDF/22-480.pdf

[patrickt]

Which begs the question....... Fred, on the hottest days of the year were you ever able to get your oil temp up to, say, 200 degrees (figuring that maybe your cooler shaved off 15 degrees)? You can probably tell, I'm wondering if the Canton will ever open up at all.

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Fred ... some questions on the Canton unit . I talked to my engine builder ( Robert Pond ) and looked at my dyno sheets . During the pulls , oil temps never got above 160 degrees F. Robert said it was real hard to get the temps any higher and that the aluminum blocks just seemed to run cooler on oil temps .... which brings me to my question . Do you know what is inside the Canton unit that could allow the oil to heat up to the 170 degree range while idling ? Sounds like there is some type of orifice that they force the oil to go through . GPM through an orifice equals pressure drop equals heat generation ... and in this case , it sounds like a good thing ( here I`m being an anal engineer again).
I went for a drive Sunday ( 80 degree day ) and never got over 160 while cruising . Robert didn`t sound too concerned about being below 180 to 200 degrees on the oil .
I also went to Canton`s web site and couldn`t tell what was in the unit .... however , depending on your outcome , I may have to get one .

Bob

Here's what I think was going on with my previous setup and why the canton unit helped. It is true that with an Aluminum motor, its hard to get the oil temps very high. The block is a good natural disipator of heat and the fact that most folks don't paint an aluminum block only helps to improve its ability to disipate heat. The cooler has alot of bare aluminum serface area (fins, top and bottom supports, and the aluminum duct work in the nose) as well as a long set of lines running outside the hot engine bay area. By installing the canton unit inside the engine bay, all of the natural cooling surfaces associated with the oil cooler are bypassed and the thermostat and lines are contained in the engine bay where the surrounding air is not as cool. I think that this explains the higher oil temperatures during prolonged idle.

- Fred

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Which begs the question....... Fred, on the hottest days of the year were you ever able to get your oil temp up to, say, 200 degrees (figuring that maybe your cooler shaved off 15 degrees)? You can probably tell, I'm wondering if the Canton will ever open up at all.

On hot days, I saw oil temps at about 70 C (160 F) during normal street driving. This was with the cooler full on all the time and the motor not being pushed hard except for relatively limited bursts. It will be interesting to see what temperature the oil will get to with the thermostat installed during warm weather but I will have to wait until the warm weather comes back next year. Honestly, if the cooler does not come into the circuit unless I am pushing the motor for extended periods, that is not a bad thing. I also suspect that I will see it come in during extended idle situations in the summer. My test the other night was in 50 degree F air and I saw oil temps of 175 F while alternating between short 2000 RPM operation and idle at rest at rest. On a 90 degree F day in the summer, I would expect to get pretty close to the opening point of the thermostat. Also note that this unit constantly circulates about 10% of the engine's oil flow through the cooler and will increase to 100% as the oil temperature nears the 215 F point. This means that the cooler will be used only when the motor sees extended high RPM operation such as in track conditions in warmer weather which is exactly what I want.

I am planning to drive the car for an extended period on the street. The air temperature should be around 55 - 60 F so it will be interesting to see what my oil temperatures look like in those conditions.


- Fred

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I don't think that's right. The instruction sheet says that it simply bypasses the oil cooler until the oil reaches 215 degrees. I don't believe it increases the temperature by reducing the volume passage, increasing pressure through an orifice, etc. I can see problems if it tried to do that. http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...PDF/22-480.pdf

I agree with patick, the thermostat does note pose any significant restriction - instead the rise in oil temperature at idle is due the removal of the cooler circuit and the elimination of all of the associated area in cooler and associated lines which disipates the heat of the oil.

- Fred

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by fkemmerer

...instead the rise in oil temperature at idle is due the removal of the cooler circuit and the elimination of all of the associated area in cool are to disipate the heat of the oil.
- Fred

-and the fact that you're not passing 40 to 100+MPH, ambient temp wind over all the exposed parts of the system we discussed. Don't understand the last part of your sentence there Fred-are you saying what I just said?

I believe that the 'sheltered' position of the t'stat and it's lines may not provide the benefit you suspect while driving. As you saw, covering the cooler did next to nothing. You will still be passing fan and rad air over the t'stat, albeit warmer than ambient.

Testing will tell.

[RedBarchetta]

FWIW, rode to Cars & Coffee this morning in The OC. 6:30am on the freeway and I saw between 90-95C (~195-205F) once the car got up to temp (which is a lot faster with the T-stat than without). Ambient air temp was about 58-60* @ 81% humidity and I was maintaining 75-80mph the whole way there (~15 miles or so). This is a great upgrade if you run a cooler, but on really cold mornings a block off plate is arguably still a necessity...Even with only 10% of the oil going through the cooler in "closed loop" mode, it's still enough flow to keep the fluid well cooled during cruising situations. Now get on it for a few stretches and that's when you wish you had a cooler!

-Dean

[D&M2]

Hi Fred,

Do you mind my asking where you got the remote oil filter bracket that attaches to your block. I fabricated a temporary bracket for my 351W but would like something that is like yours as is would be a lot more asthetically pleasing.

Mike

[fkemmerer]

I got a chance to drive my car for an extended period today. In 60 degree F ambient conditions, the oil temperature stayed at 80 degrees C (175 F). I also drove the car tonight for an extended period in 45 degree F air and the oil temperature stayed at around 73 degrees C (about 165 F). Given the coolness of the conditions and my aluminum motor, I am pretty happy with this performance. All of this testing was done without blocking the oil cooler.

I also decided to insulate the oil temperature sensor on the front of my oil pan to ensure that the cold air circulating under the car did not cause the oil temperature gauge to give false readings. This was accomplished with a short piece of 1/2 pipe insulation from my local Home Depot and some cable ties:



At this point, I am pretty pleased with the results and I can definitely recommend the installation of the Canton Oil Thermostat on a street driven cobra with an oil cooler.

- Fred

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

-and the fact that you're not passing 40 to 100+MPH, ambient temp wind over all the exposed parts of the system we discussed. Don't understand the last part of your sentence there Fred-are you saying what I just said?

I believe that the 'sheltered' position of the t'stat and it's lines may not provide the benefit you suspect while driving. As you saw, covering the cooler did next to nothing. You will still be passing fan and rad air over the t'stat, albeit warmer than ambient.

Testing will tell.

Chas,

Check out the post with the testing data. I am seeing a significant increase in oil temperatures with the Canton unit on the car. I am seeing an increase in my oil temperatures from 50 C to about 75 - 80 C in the cold weather here in New England and I no longer need to block the oil cooler.

- Fred

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by D&M2

Hi Fred,

Do you mind my asking where you got the remote oil filter bracket that attaches to your block. I fabricated a temporary bracket for my 351W but would like something that is like yours as is would be a lot more asthetically pleasing.

Mike

Hi Mike,

ERA supplied a mounting bracket and the remote oil filter housing. I modified ERA's bracket to fit the Shelby water pump I am using properly and had it powder coated. Also polished their remote oil filter housing.

- Fred

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by fkemmerer

Chas,

Check out the post with the testing data. I am seeing a significant increase in oil temperatures with the Canton unit on the car. I am seeing an increase in my oil temperatures from 50 C to about 75 - 80 C in the cold weather here in New England and I no longer need to block the oil cooler.

- Fred

Bravo Fred,

Great job and glad you had success. After 2 Mocal's and an Earls you proved I tried the wrong t'stats. (2 of which are resting on my parts shelf)

I will continue to use the car in my customary manor as that has worked well for me. I'm just smart enough to know that KISS principle works best for me and only smarter guys than me (like you) should employ more complex solutions.

Just avoid creating a 3000 pound ERA because even with 650 HP, it won't feel the same.

[D&M2]

Thanks Fred.

Mike

[DonC]

Just anecdotal information but I've had the Canton unit on my 428 since new (iron block, aluminum heads) and have been happy with it to this point. No matter what the outside temp it has kept the oil temp at 85C (on my gauge) during normal operations. In colder outside temps (35 to 40 degrees) it takes a while to get there but stabilizes at 85.
During track days or "spirited" driving I'll get up into the mid to upper 90's but it comes right back down after a few minutes of normal operation. Have seen about 105 during one very long slow local parade when the outside temps were in the upper 90's but that was almost an hour of stop and go at about 5MPH.
The unit has been on the car for 5 seasons or 34,000 miles to date.
DonC

[Bobcat]

Fred .... your comment on cleaning out the hydraulic lines thoroughly can`t be emphasized enough . I worked with a firetruck mfg. to reduce his hydraulic warranty issues and ran a contamination analysis of all hydraulic components used on the truck . To make a long story short , they were cutting the hyd. hose with a steel blade cutoff saw ( good ) , but assembling the hose and never cleaning them out . The unused hose was put back in storage with the ends uncapped . After they started cleaning out the hoses with the cleaning " bullets " and making the other recommended changes , their hydraulic warranty costs dropped almost 90% .
I can`t say this strongly enough ... clean the hoses thoroughly to get the bits of wire braid , inner liner and other junk out !!
Really glad you recognized this as 99% of the people I talk to say .... it`s clean , I blew it out with air !!
BTW , great job on doing the install and then documenting everything !!

Bob

[fkemmerer]

We just did some fuel and electrical upgrades on ERA 753. The recent work consisted of:

1) Installation of a slightly larger, flow matched set of Siemens injectors from Marren (motor is a 482 ci FE; old injectors were Ford "Green Tops" rated 42 lbs/hr, new Siemens injectors are rated at 55 lbs/hr)

2) Improved the current carrying capacity of the primary wire circuit of our MSD system

These are two minor upgrades that I have been wanting to do for some time. The injectors were mostly about reducing fuel pressure a bit and allowing my injectors to run a little less duty cycle at high output. The new injectors were fully flow matched by Marren to within 2% of each other. Marren provides detailed injector performance information as part of their injector prep services. This includes injector deadtime numbers which are usually not available:



Using the Marren provided injector flow data and I was able to with use the individual cylinder correction features of the FAST XFI to balance the injectors to within 1%.

Also, I felt that the coil output looked a tad weak when I first installed the MSD setup on the car and I wanted to make sure the primary wiring was completely up to snuff. I used a gauge heavier wire for the primary circuit this time and eliminated a connector at my MSD box.

The immediate result of all of this was a smoother idle which is a good sign. I will need to do some re-tuning of the car for the new injectors which will probably have to wait until spring at this point.

I can recommend Marren as a source of high quality, matched fuel injectors. I've used their injectors on both of my EFI projects and have gotten good results with them. Marren provides injector flowing and matching services and they are great when it comes to providing fuel injector recommendations for a given application. You can check out their website at:

http://www.injector.com/

BTW, we are starting to contemplate our next project. As we've done previously, I am looking to do something totally different in terms of engine and car. We're thinking along the lines of the following but with a little bit more power :





This is a 41 Willys coupe with a blown and injected big block Rat Motor. It probably makes about 700 HP (the blower setup, CAM, and tune on this car are "mild"). If we did something like this, we'd do a 41 Willys but with a blown Hemi (and EFI of course). If we based this on a 540 ci stroker Hemi or maybe a 528 ci version, we should make around 900 ft-lbs of torque and around 1,000 hp on pump gas. This car would definitely be an automatic trans car. Not sure if we will do this project or not - just playing around with some ideas....

- Fred

[RedBarchetta]

Fred, I have seen quite a few of these blown Willys coupes here in So Cal. And to be totally honest, they are mostly trailer queens. The blower surge on these big inch, injected motors is so great that they are barely streetable. They sound GREAT, but I'm sure they are a handful just to get from point A to point B. If your aim is to just trickle down to the local burger drive-in, then you might be happy. But beyond that it's a bit of a stretch. My $0.02, which is worth half that on a good day.

-Dean

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

Fred, I have seen quite a few of these blown Willys coupes here in So Cal. And to be totally honest, they are mostly trailer queens. The blower surge on these big inch, injected motors is so great that they are barely streetable. They sound GREAT, but I'm sure they are a handful just to get from point A to point B. If your aim is to just trickle down to the local burger drive-in, then you might be happy. But beyond that it's a bit of a stretch. My $0.02, which is worth half that on a good day.

-Dean

Hi Dean

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The reason for the surge you have seen is the long intake track on these motors (blower plus intake). EFI and it's ability to adjust idle gain and damping will go a long way to solving this. I am also thinking of running two sets of injectors. One set in the injector above the blower and a second set in the intake ports. The later short cicuits the long intake track and allows the motor to idle properly.

- Fred