ERA 753 - Final Assembly in Progress

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by fkemmerer

I got a chance to drive my car for an extended period today. In 60 degree F ambient conditions, the oil temperature stayed at 80 degrees C (175 F). I also drove the car tonight for an extended period in 45 degree F air and the oil temperature stayed at around 73 degrees C (about 165 F). Given the coolness of the conditions and my aluminum motor, I am pretty happy with this performance. All of this testing was done without blocking the oil cooler.

I also decided to insulate the oil temperature sensor on the front of my oil pan to ensure that the cold air circulating under the car did not cause the oil temperature gauge to give false readings. This was accomplished with a short piece of 1/2 pipe insulation from my local Home Depot and some cable ties:



At this point, I am pretty pleased with the results and I can definitely recommend the installation of the Canton Oil Thermostat on a street driven cobra with an oil cooler.

- Fred

Did insulating the temperature sensor make a difference? Does anyone know if an uninsulated sensor gives lower than actual temp readings in cold weather, or does it matter because the actual sensor is inside the pan in the oil?

I currently have my oil cooler blocked off with lexan, but will probably install an oil cooler thermostat (still not completely decided on which one yet). The lexan didn't seem to do very much. But if insulating the sensor is a big deal, then I'd like to do that first and get a real baseline on where my temps are.

Thoughts?

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Did insulating the temperature sensor make a difference? Does anyone know if an uninsulated sensor gives lower than actual temp readings in cold weather, or does it matter because the actual sensor is inside the pan in the oil?

I currently have my oil cooler blocked off with lexan, but will probably install an oil cooler thermostat (still not completely decided on which one yet). The lexan didn't seem to do very much. But if insulating the sensor is a big deal, then I'd like to do that first and get a real baseline on where my temps are.

Thoughts?

Doug,

I think that the insulation cannot help but improve the accuracy of the gauge - especially in extremely cold weather where the front of the oil pan and thermostat fittings draw the most heat away from the sensor bulb.

- Fred

[Rick Parker]

Maybe the front of the pan needs to be insulated???

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

Maybe the front of the pan needs to be insulated???

Probably best to just insulate the sensor. The extra cooling you get on the front of the pan in warm weather is probably helpful.

- Fred

[NC427]

Fred, please allow me asking some questions in regard to the FAST traction control if you don´t mind:

What are your experiences with the FAST traction control so far?

Does it work smooth and efficiently in real life conditions?

Can the response of the traction control unit be adjusted individually or is there one standard programme?

Last but not least: So far I did not understand if only sparks are cut or also the fuel. Would you happen to know? I am just worried about fuel constantly being pumped into the engine and sparks being left out for some intervals.

I shall be thankful in case you can help me along with some answers as I am sort of lost whilst choosing THE traction control for my Cobra.......

Carsten

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by NC427

Fred, please allow me asking some questions in regard to the FAST traction control if you don´t mind:

What are your experiences with the FAST traction control so far?

Does it work smooth and efficiently in real life conditions?

Can the response of the traction control unit be adjusted individually or is there one standard programme?

Last but not least: So far I did not understand if only sparks are cut or also the fuel. Would you happen to know? I am just worried about fuel constantly being pumped into the engine and sparks being left out for some intervals.

I shall be thankful in case you can help me along with some answers as I am sort of lost whilst choosing THE traction control for my Cobra.......

Carsten

My car has very sticky tires (Goodyear road race rain tires) and a cam that does not produce excessive torque at lower RPMs. This, no doubt, is the best "traction control" feature on my car. The FAST XFI system has two modes:

1) A driveshaft speed change mode that retards the ignition timing. This is the mode that I am using and its more designed to avoid wheel spins when changing gears or on less than good pavement. You can pull as much timing out of the motor as you need to to limit toque output. I'd say that its possible to reduce the torque output by as much as 30-35% using this method.

2) A Drag Race mode where you create a driveshaft speed based profile from a dead stop and limit drive shaft speed to this profile. In this mode, individual cyclinders are not fired at all to keep things under control

The fast XFI has an option to store up to 4 seperate programs for everything (including the traction control). You can switch these prior to starting the car. I have the switch on my car but I have not found a need to use multiple programs to date.

I think that the case 1) traction control that I am using is good for controlling traction loss on a well set up car in unusal conditions (ex too much torque being applied out of a corner and breaking the rear wheels loose). It is not a substitue for a poorly setup combination which cannot put a good bit of the torque that is made to the ground in the first place.

I hope that this helps,

- Fred

[NC427]

Fred,

first of all: Thanks a lot for those informations! They are highly apprpeciated!

1) Tires: My car is on Avons and although I have not had chances to test the Goodyear´s I would expect them to perform quite well

2) My major aim is to have a traction control installed that helps me to overcome critical situations but which is not trying (able) to replace the driver - I do understand from what you wrote that the FAST could be an option in this respect.

3) Car´s set-up / allignment: Fully agree to your point! Have seen too many car´s with impressive motors, breath-taking HP´s and no Cent invested in proper allignment / set-up - The fact that results where fairly poor is not really amazing to anyone starting from the right end (and that should be the contact area car/asphalt) I guess.

4) Fred, how would you rate the FAST stystem in regard to user friendlyness once it comes down to tuning and not being anything close to an FI expert? Having read your build thread very carefully I am sort of afraid that I might never come close to your FI expertise and then be ending up with an unsatisfying result.........

regards
Carsten

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by NC427

Fred,

first of all: Thanks a lot for those informations! They are highly apprpeciated!

1) Tires: My car is on Avons and although I have not had chances to test the Goodyear´s I would expect them to perform quite well

2) My major aim is to have a traction control installed that helps me to overcome critical situations but which is not trying (able) to replace the driver - I do understand from what you wrote that the FAST could be an option in this respect.

3) Car´s set-up / allignment: Fully agree to your point! Have seen too many car´s with impressive motors, breath-taking HP´s and no Cent invested in proper allignment / set-up - The fact that results where fairly poor is not really amazing to anyone starting from the right end (and that should be the contact area car/asphalt) I guess.

4) Fred, how would you rate the FAST stystem in regard to user friendlyness once it comes down to tuning and not being anything close to an FI expert? Having read your build thread very carefully I am sort of afraid that I might never come close to your FI expertise and then be ending up with an unsatisfying result.........

regards
Carsten

Hi Carsten,

All your points make sense. I'd especially stress the importance of proper chassis setup and tires. The chassis setup step is "skipped" by many folks when this is often a source of many handling and other related problems.

I've worked with FAST XFI, Bigstuff GEN3, and Motec engine management systems. I think that FAST is probably one of the simpliest to use. Bigstuff is similar but a bit more capable in a few areas (boost and nitrous management for example). Motec is the most sofisticated (and most complex of all) and has its own, rather steep leaning curve on top of the FAST and Bigstuff systems. Motec is one of the most powerful systems on the market today in terms of features and flexibility though - its also probably the system of choice for high end tuner cars (I saw a Honda VTEC equiped FWD car with twin turbos and a Motec enegine managment system make over 700 hp in one of the EFI classes that I took ).

The most important thing you'll need to get good results with any of these systems is a basic understanding of fuel and timing management systems as they relate to how an engine performs in vairous operating conditions. You'll also need a basic understanding of how to tune an engine as well as access to the proper equiment to get the job done right. There are some pretty good books out there on these topics. I addition, I can recommend the training provided by EFI unverisity [I've taken three of their courses now - the Accelerated Certificantion Program (ACP), Advanced Tuning Concepts (EFI-102) and their online Variable Cam Timing Tuning Course]. These programs are not cheep biut they do provide (along with a thorough reading on three of the best books on the topic) a solid mix of the Fuel and Timing Systems therory that you need to be a good tuner plus enough hands on tuning and dyno experience to be ready to take on a real project and do it well.

A good (and less $$) alternative to all of this training is have a professional tuner do the basic tune on your car and do some of the fine tuning like the traction control and final drivability adjustments yourself with some oversight and help from your tuner. I think that working with an experience tuner coupled with reading of the books mentioned below and a little time learning to use the software for your engine management system with your car should get you where you want to be without creating a situation where you will hurt you engine or harm its performance. The key here is to pick a good tuner and spend the money on a proper dyno facility to get the initial tune done right. It is also very important that "Hardware" system on the car be done right and be completely reliable. This includes a well engineered fuel system, electrical system, and proper sensor installation so that your engine management system is getting good information and realy creating the fuel and timing environment in your engine that your tuning program is trying to generate. I would say that problems in the "Hardware" designed and execution accounts for a good bit of the "problems" that folks experience with EFI systems.

At this point you are probably thinking - can I really do this? Here would be my suggestion. First, call COMP cams and order their FAST XFI tuning DVD and watch it. This will give you a feel of how the software works and a bit of information on the tuning process. Don't worry if you don't understand everything the first time you watch the DVD. Also get the three books listed below, read them and see if the concepts and the tuning process seem understandable to you. If they do, then I recommend that you find an experienced tuner or engine builder to work with you on your first EFI project. This is how I got started. I did not take any formal training beyond reading the books until I did my second car. I did do all of the "hardware" on my first car and I followed the advise of my engine builder (who is an EFI and supercharger expert) to the tee. My engine builder dyno tuned my motor in his shop on an engine dyno which got me a solid tune that was close for the car. I did all of the fuel system, electrical work, sensor installation as part of putting the motor and drivetrain in the car. When we ran into the inevitable drivability issues that are pretty common (an engine dyno can never simulate all of the transient conditions that you'll encourter when actually driving your car), my engine builder worked with me to solve the problems and taught me quite a bit through the process. Once you do a car this way, you can decide if you really want to make the investment in training and possibly equipment to really do the complete tuning process on your own. Also note that most systems including FAST XFI can be tuned over the internet. I used this approach on my blown and injected SBC with my engine builder on the phone and making adjustments on the car with me watching and then driving the car and collecting measurements with the system to see if the tuning changes had the desired effect - pretty cool!

I will also say that both of my EFI projects (a supercharged and injected 383 stroker in an early vette and the stack injected 482 FE in my cobra) are both pretty difficult tuning exercises. I belive that I could probably have put an OK tune on a more straight forward engine combination by driving the car and following a systematic tuning process as outlined the books which follow. The one area where you absolutely MUST use a dyno is for WOT tuning. There is no safe way to do this properly on the street. Even if you think it might be OK to take the safety risk and do this tuning on the street, you cannot get the tune right without being able to hold close to a static load at high engine speeds. The only way to do this part of the tune accurately is on a load bearing dyno.

The EFI tuning books that I like are:

Building & Tuning High-Performance Electronic Fuel Injection by Ben Strader
Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish
Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems by Greg Banish

All of these books are available on Amazon in paperback for at a reasonable cost.

If you want to really get into the theory of Fuel Systems, Timining and overall engine tuning I would recommend the following (but this is a more difficult read - an engineer's text for sure and not really necessary to get good results with EFI):

Four-Stroke Performance Tuning 3rd ed: A practical guide - A. Bell

This book will teach you how to select parts for an engine combination that will really unlock power that you would not think was there. A read of this book and some time spend with a really good wave-action desktop engine simulation program can teach you a tremendous amount about how a performance engine really works and how to pick parts and tune it to get the most possible performance out of a given combination. This is a great way to figure out an engine combination from scratch before you buy a single part. I am considering a blown and injected hemi project (with EFI of course) for a possible future street rod project and have probably built and tested 50 combinations in the dyno simulation and learned a ton about what will and will not work on the street with a combination like this). BTW, the computer dyno I am using predicts the HP and Torque output of the two engines that I've build using EFI to within about 10% of the test results on an engine dyno when fed the accurate information on the specific combinations that these engines are built with.

I hope that this helps you. I cannot say enough positives about the performance, drivability, and flexibility of a well executed EFI system. This approach allows us to make what would be almost unstreetable combinations perform great with excellent driveability, great street manners and gobs of power when you call for it. There is a learning cureve to doing EFI right for sure but it is not rocket science. If you work with poeple who have some experience, do you homework, and invest a little time in learning some of the basic fuel systems and timing theory about engines, you will get good results. Also, as the performance industry makes variable cam timing systems and other high-tech performance tools more availble to the performance aftermarket, the advantages of EFI will on continue to become greater.

I hope that this helps you,

- Fred

[NC427]

Fred,

Thank you so much!!!!!!!!

The information you provided is helpful to me in any respect - So I will very likely follow your suggestion and start training myself prior to making any final decision.

I guess this really will make sense as we do have a variety of so called "experts" on this side of the pond in regard to tuning aspects for FI systems but frankly I cannot judge their real life abilities and I have heard some stories which have not really been encouraging as well as others which sound quite promising.

Myself I would rather prefer being able to make a well founded decision instead of "betting" on choosing the right expert. This is also why your input is appreciated so much - you went through the process already......

As my heart is still torn appart between a real life (almost) self tuning system like the mass flo (which has no traction control feature) and a stack system which will force me to really get involved into the mystery of FI I will follow your recommendation and try to get started from the right end: "Tune" my own abilities and make my choice once I feel that my own knowledge base has grown.

Fred, alongside to your general helping attitude I guess the thread and evolutionary discription about ERA 753´s development is outstandingly helpful in many respects and to many people / especially once it comes down to non-standardized solutions for certain obstacles we are all running into from time to time. I persume I am not the only one having read the thread mmore than once.

Thanks again
Carsten

[fkemmerer]

Originally Posted by NC427

Fred,

Thank you so much!!!!!!!!

The information you provided is helpful to me in any respect - So I will very likely follow your suggestion and start training myself prior to making any final decision.

I guess this really will make sense as we do have a variety of so called "experts" on this side of the pond in regard to tuning aspects for FI systems but frankly I cannot judge their real life abilities and I have heard some stories which have not really been encouraging as well as others which sound quite promising.

Myself I would rather prefer being able to make a well founded decision instead of "betting" on choosing the right expert. This is also why your input is appreciated so much - you went through the process already......

As my heart is still torn appart between a real life (almost) self tuning system like the mass flo (which has no traction control feature) and a stack system which will force me to really get involved into the mystery of FI I will follow your recommendation and try to get started from the right end: "Tune" my own abilities and make my choice once I feel that my own knowledge base has grown.

Fred, alongside to your general helping attitude I guess the thread and evolutionary discription about ERA 753´s development is outstandingly helpful in many respects and to many people / especially once it comes down to non-standardized solutions for certain obstacles we are all running into from time to time. I persume I am not the only one having read the thread mmore than once.

Thanks again
Carsten

Hi Carsten,

Thanks for the kind words. I think that the more folks like you who learn EFI systems and use them on their cars, the better for our hobby in general.

Just a couple of additional thoughts to help you think through the choice of a "self tuning" system like MassFlo vs. more advanced systems like FAST etc. While I have not worked with a self tuning system I suspect they do work well on relatively mild engine combinations that don't have alot of tuning issues to begin with. For a system to "learn" the proper tune, you need an engine that does not have an issues like reversion problems, or other difficult to tuning characterisitics. They systems also have somewhat limited performance capabilites due the the Mass Air Sensor approach they use which is arguably the easiest to use fuel management strategy (most EFI system like FAST, etc. offer multiple engine management strategies which usually include a minimum of Mass Airflow, Speed Density, and Alpha-N fuel management strategies). If you are working a maximum performance application (say 500 hp or more or if you are using nitros, turbos, or a supercharger) you will probably not be able to get the best results with a self-tuning system. The other reason to spend the time learning to tune a more advanced system is that its fun! Once you get the hang of it, you can make your car do what you want it to do pretty predicablely and you will also have the satisifcation that you optimized your car's performance in the way you see fit. I personally think its pretty cool to be able to change my engine's characteristics with a laptop and some time spent testing and making adjustments.

BTW, here's a little more on the three most common fuel management strategies:

+ Mass Airflow - a sensor is used on the intake side at or ahead of the throttle body that estimates the mass of the air flowing into the engine. This approach is very accurate because the mass of the air one of the most basic variables that determines how much fuel an engine needs. The drawback to this approach is that measuring air mass usually involves a sensor that can have somewhat resticted airflow. These sensors also aren't practical with multiple throttle body systems like stack injectors, hat injectors, etc.

+ Speed Denisty - this is probably the most common strategy in street max performance and many racing applications. The Vacumn or pressure in the intake manifold plus the air temperature are used together to acurately estimate the mass of the air going into the engine. This approach has the advantage that it does not restrict the inlet of the throttle bodies and it works extemely well with turbos and superchargers because in can accurately measure boost pressures and inlet temps under boost which allows for some special tuning techniques in these very high performance applications (ex. you can add more fuel under high boost to manage detonation and control combustion temperatures so you don't melt pistons, overheat exhaust valves, etc under this high stress situations). Speed density can be used with stack injection systems if the manifold has the necessary plumbing to create a common plennum between the runners where the manifold pressure can be measured. I am using Speed-Density on both by superchanged motor and the stack injected FE in my cobra.

+ Alpha-N - This a more tunable, computerized version of the system that mechanical fuel injection systems have used for years. The angle of the throttle blade(s) and the engine RPM are used to determine how much fuel the engine needs. This method is often used in race applications where the camshaft selection is such that the motor his little or unsteady manifold vacumn at idle and low RPM. This approach works OK in a race application where part throttle and low-RPM drivability are not the primary concerns but usually results in less than an ideal tune for a street drive vehicle. The usual end result of this strategy is an engine that runs more rich than is ideal in some ranges of the car's operation.

Glad you are find this information useful and I am happy to answer you questions to help you and also hopefully help others on the forum.

- Fred

[NC427]

Fred,

this is interesting additional input - so I have plenty of things to evaluate by now and will hopefully come to a point sooner or later where I feel being more capable than today to make THE choice!

Again your support is highly appreciated!

Carsten

[fkemmerer]

I have had one problem since day one with my EFI setup on my ERA - when the car sits and idles for awhile, the air temp sensor (ATS) get heat soaked from the engine heat and reads way too high (I've see 180 F at times with the laptop hooked up). This cause the EFI system to lean the engine to the point where it does not run well. After the car is moving for a few minutes, the ATS sensor cools off and reads the correct air temperatures again. This is due to the original ATS location between the stacks on my intake:



To solve this problem, I decided to move the Air Temp Sensor to the passenger side air vent control on my ERA. To begin with, we removed the air vent control and drilled and tapped it for the ATS. Here's a picture of that step after completion:



THe nexxt step was to extend the wire from my EFI harness and tape it to match the rest of the ERA harnesses on the car. I was able to route the ATS sensor harness along the top of the firewall on the right side behind the wiper control wiring. When this was done, the extra wiring for the ATS sensor was invisible. Finally, I installed the modified vent control back in the car and adjusted it so that it is partially open when the vent know is in the "closed" postion. This way, the sensor is alway getting outside air to provide an acurate reading. Here's a picture of the final installation:



The sensor is completely invisible and provides much more accurate readings now and responds much quicker to outside air temperature changes than the old setup did.

- Fred

[fkemmerer]

Just a brief update on my Air Temperature Sensor relocation project. I decided to drill a hole in the modified vent control just above the air temperature sensor location. The following is a picture of that modification:



This allows the vent to be fully shut and still have enough air going over the Air Temp Sensor to get accurate readings. My wife likes this much better than having the vent part open when is cold.

- Fred

[Metal-morphous]

Hi Fred, looks like your doing some finial tweaks on that monster. Sorry we haven’t talked in awhile but our work flood gates opened late this season and Renee had to have some surgery. I'm sure we will get together this year and I will give you a call. Are you still in Texas?
Ron

[sgianino]

Has anyone heard from Fred kemmerer recently? Just curious, i havent seen any activity from him and tried droppin him a message.....I met him years ago at a car show...Great guy

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by sgianino

Has anyone heard from Fred kemmerer recently? Just curious, i havent seen any activity from him and tried droppin him a message.....I met him years ago at a car show...Great guy

According to the last activity statement on his profile page, he hasn't logged in here since 2011.

[sgianino]

It wasnt like the last post was of the completion of the car either, at least i dont think it was.
I looked up the ERA chasis # and it doesnt appear it changed hands that i can see....Maybe he will check in if this thread sends him a notification ?
The engineering of his car was incredible! Smart smart guy

[patrickt]

Dang, it's not a good sign when a man doesn't update his build thread in a dozen years. All the more reason that you should start your build when you're young and strong. Over the last couple of weeks I restored an 86 year old telephone for my garage and I'm achy from just doing that.

[Harpoon PV2]

1937, I had to do the math! Seems like just yesterday, that anything that old, would have been born or made in the 19th century. I just realized, the 8th of this month, would have been my Dads 100th birthday! That and several threads on small block Cobras, that never got finished, really make you realized how fast time marches by! Felling old, Dennis

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Harpoon PV2

1937, I had to do the math! Seems like just yesterday, that anything that old, would have been born or made in the 19th century.

And as a tribute to Made in the USA quality, the inductive coil, the ringer coils, the dual capacitor, the receiver and the transmitter all still worked perfectly although the transmitting element showed it had a date code of 1944 so it had been changed out -- I replaced that with a NOS unit. The dial and hook switch, along with the wiring, had apparently been "experimented on" by an adolescent with a screwdriver. Both required serious attention. What is remarkable is that the audio quality is as good, or better, than a new phone and the bell ringer sound is absolutely charming. Just imagine the calls that took place on that phone. BTW, that wall in my garage was constructed in 1934 so the phone fits right in.