Let's talk engines...

[RAO-3]

Am I wearing you guys down yet?

Looking around at the member's galleries, it would seem that every single cobra has a different engine.

When you first built/bought your cobra, did you install your 1st choice engine, or did you start out with some other engine that you either plan to replace, or have already replaced? In making your selection did you give any thought to the original cobra? I noted that some vendors kits seem to have more non-original engines than others.

What engine did you pick and why?

Who did you have build it, and were you happy with the result? If you had it to do over again, would you go with the same engine and builder; if not what would you have done differently.

Ray

[trularin]

Lugged a Boss 351 around for almost 30 years. That is what is in my car.

Are you looking for an FE to build up?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RAO-3

Am I wearing you guys down yet?

No, we've seen it all before, and it's kind of like your wife when she finds out she's pregnant for the first time. You get nine months of planning, nesting, getting the baby room just right, etc. Everything's got to be just perfect and she's thinking about it every minute of the day. You only do that on your first kid it seems. Guys do the same thing with their Cobras... seriously. It's perfectly normal.

Regarding my engine, it had to be an FE, and preferably not the 390. You can't tell the difference on a sideoiler without crawling under them, and you can't crawl under them anyway. I knew how I wanted it built and I worked with the builder to make it perform exactly how I wanted it to perform. Here's a word of caution: Don't get caught up in the numbers race. IMO, anything over about 450HP is wasted on a predominantly street-driven car, and once you start getting your numbers up much higher than that, the drivability factor and the lifespan of the engine become factors. I get saddened every time I see a $75k+ Cobra for sale that has 1500 miles on it with 550HP. The owner built it for numbers and not to suit his needs. Just my two cents.

[Kramer]

Take Patricks sentiment to heart....I think the information he shared is spot on.

That all being said, I chose the 427 b/c 1) my wallet allowed for it and 2) I simply like the look of a big block stuffed in that little car. I guess I could have chose another BB engine, but I don't think I will ever build another one and every time some asked me about the engine, I wanted to say "yes" to is that a 427?

Stay with what you can afford.....the 427 SO can get expensive. (I thought I could do it cheaper that others suggested but it actually wound up closer to $30K)

[elric]

I already had the Cammer but needed a car to put it in. Bought a Mustang fastback but by the time you cut the shock towers, have headers made, install a rack and good front suspension, good brakes, etc, etc; it was starting to make less sense than the Cobra (except you get a roof). PatrickT has sound advice; I lowered compression a little and installed very streetable cams. You really need to determine what you want to do with the car. I've had plenty of hot rods in the past and dealing 7-800 naturally aspirated hp is a pain and not worth it IMO. As along as it runs good and is reliable - 4-500hp is alll you need if you're just going to street drive it.

[RAO-3]

My plans for the car are for street and show; no track time.

Patrick, even though I have been reading about everyone's big HP engines, I've kinda been thinking nothing radical or over the top for my use.

Right now I was thinking 428 fe with aluminum heads and dual carbs and street cam. Kind of a "later 427SC" even though it will have the rectangular tail lamps courtesy of NJ DMV. However I haven't talked to an engine builder yet, was waiting to talk to Peter to find out his recommendations as I'm still planning turn-key. What do you all think? Mated to a 5 speed, either the Tremec or the Richmond.

Ray

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RAO-3

My plans for the car are for street and show; no track time.

Patrick, even though I have been reading about everyone's big HP engines, I've kinda been thinking nothing radical or over the top for my use.

Right now I was thinking 428 fe with aluminum heads and dual carbs and street cam. Kind of a "later 427SC" even though it will have the rectangular tail lamps courtesy of NJ DMV. However I haven't talked to an engine builder yet, was waiting to talk to Peter to find out his recommendations as I'm still planning turn-key. What do you all think? Mated to a 5 speed, either the Tremec or the Richmond.
Ray

Sounds good to me -- dual four barrels would be for looks only on that mill; you'd get the same performance from a single (and a single is easier to adjust). Regarding cams, I went with a solid, flat tappet cam. There's some risk in doing that, but a small upside too as far as I'm concerned. There's no downside to one provided you can get by the first 1000 miles without eating a lobe. If you're thinking solid flat, then you'll want to do some searching on the break-in and zinc issue. If you're thinking solid roller, then you'll want to do some searching on the solid roller compatibility with FE issue. If you're thinking hydraulic flat or hydraulic roller then you can pretty much stop thinking and just do it -- it'll work out fine. Both Tremec and Richmond are fine transmissions, but you must pay attention to how the gear ratios, rear end ratio, and your torque curve all come together. There is a benefit to having a first gear that will allow you to go slow. Keep that in mind when you're spec'ing out your gears.

[RAO-3]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Sounds good to me -- dual four barrels would be for looks only on that mill; you'd get the same performance from a single (and a single is easier to adjust). Regarding cams, I went with a solid, flat tappet cam. There's some risk in doing that, but a small upside too as far as I'm concerned. There's no downside to one provided you can get by the first 1000 miles without eating a lobe. If you're thinking solid flat, then you'll want to do some searching on the break-in and zinc issue. If you're thinking solid roller, then you'll want to do some searching on the solid roller compatibility with FE issue. If you're thinking hydraulic flat or hydraulic roller then you can pretty much stop thinking and just do it -- it'll work out fine. Both Tremec and Richmond are fine transmissions, but you must pay attention to how the gear ratios, rear end ratio, and your torque curve all come together. There is a benefit to having a first gear that will allow you to go slow. Keep that in mind when you're spec'ing out your gears.

My thought on the duals was for looks and not really for performance; I may end up going with the single after talking to the engine guy. I'm also leaning towards the hydraulic for ease in maintenance. Who knows, this may all change after I hear from Peter and the engine guy, but at the same time value the opinions of those on this board greatly, since you've been down this "road" before. Kramer, I had considered the 427 SO (isn't that what everyone wants?), but it seems that for what I'm looking for, it would be more $$$ than is really necessary. And I didn't want to get the 390 since that wasn't in there originally.

Good thoughts on the gears, hadn't really thought that through yet.



Ray

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

A well prepared 428 will be more than adequate for street driving...even some occasional track days. The cost is probably 1/2 that of a 427 done right, and many originals were equipped with 428's. Peter can steer you right with a good engine builder. Good luck.

[DonC]

Had my engine built by Joe Lapine at Danbury Competition Engines, one of ERA's recommended engine builders. I knew I wanted a 428 since it was a good choice for the cost vs bragging rights controversies. A 427 s/o would have been "swell" but, in my case, I got the car so I could drive it and the 428 struck me a a solid middle of the road engine.
Met with Joe on my first trip back to visit the folks at ERA and asked for his opinion on what it would take to build a 428 with 500 hp at the flywheel that would last for 100,000 miles. He told me it could be done but would be pretty expensive. On the other hand he said 450 and 100,000 could be accomplished with no exotic efforts. That was enough for me.
22,000 miles and 4 years later it's still running strong and has never failed me. Are there stronger cars out there? Sure, but I'm content with a great handling road car without having to worry about replacing parts that can only be found in the aero-space industry.
I look forward to many more happy (still grin when I drive it) miles before I have to start worrying about rebuilds.
DonC

[RICK LAKE]

RAO-3 Ray I'm not sure how must of a problem in NJ they could cause on the year of the car. IMO the FE stroker is the way to go. A 470-482 cubic motor in Aluminium is the way. Chaplin has one in his car. Sorry you could not have made the little cobra show at Washingtons Crossing. He would have taken you for a ride. As to what the other guys say forget the big HP numbers, It's not needed. The Car is 2,550 lbs. 400+ hp will give you a hell of a ride. A single 4 barrel carb works fine and is simple. Motor, you only want to do this once. IMO hydro cam shaft and lifters are just like any car you buy new. Solids are for racing and hard driving, not cruising and idling. You can get a larger hydro cam to give you the nasty idle. This IMO is the best way to go with minimum maintainance to the motor except for oil changes. Get a torque motor built not HP. This will be a streetable enjoyment. Specs on the motor would be from 9.2 compression to 10.5 compression. With the less compression in the motor, regulator gas is easy to run. Get a set of EDELbrock heads from KCR, stage 2 for the motor. IMO the biggest power killer in the cobra is the side pipes. About 25-50 HP is killed. The street pipes are quieter that race pipes. Race pipes are louder. Transmissions, superstreet 5 spd from Richmond. Comes with the overdrive for cruising. 2.87 first gear. Most guys with transmissions have low rearend gearing don't use first gear anyway. Torque moves the car, not HP. This is not the cheapest trans of 5 spds, but the strongthest and will not get hurt from a little abuse. Rearend gearing. First you want a posi, 3.31 gears with this trans and a torque motor will be perfect. 3.54's will give you a small accelleration advantage but make the motor run at a higher rpm when cruising. Cruising speed 65-80. DON'T lug the motor. It pounds the bottom end to death. FE's have heavy rotating assemblies over most other motors. This should give you an idea of where to start. Get the deal started and tell ERA you will get back to them on motor and trans combo. Which rearend are you going with, inboard or outboard brakes?? Have a nice trip to ERA. Take a camera and plenty of pictures to look at. Make a list of things to ask. Peter will walk you through the whole deal. There is a 90 day waiting period before anything is done. Rick Lake

[patrickt]

I can't take issue with anything Rick L. said -- and I dearly enjoy finding fault with Rick's posts. I don't think you can even get a "one-legged rear" in an ERA, they all come with Power-Lok LSDs, so don't worry about that -- just decide between inboard and outboard. Regardless of how your mechanical skill is now, there's a good chance that over time you'll become a pretty proficient Cobra mechanic, and the ERA outboard rear is fun to play with. The rods and sway bar are adjustable and the mechanical configuration of the entire rear is a simple, elegant design. Rick L. -- you never proffered an opinion on whether zerk-fitted U-joints were less strong than the "lubed for life" U-joints. What say you?

[RAO-3]

Rick, as I understand it, the emissions requirements are determined by the year of the block, so to stay away from the catalytic converters, am I not stuck with a 428 FE iron block? My thought, given the emissions situation was the 428 block with aluminum heads, the street cam with hydraulic lifters and twin holleys. You don't like the sidepipes? HP wise, I was hoping for something like say 450hp or thereabouts. Not looking for rough idle, no racing, just driving, cruising and parking. Also was thinking the twin holleys to be closer to what was on the cobra 428's, rather than performance.

Patrickt, from everything I've read on this board, the outboard rear seems to be the way to go so I was going to go with that.

Ray

[RICK LAKE]

pactrickt Hi Pat. I didnot know I was to answer the U Joint question. Any way here goes. My Jeeps used the same joints as the Cobra drive shaft. I would get about 5-7,000 miles per front shaft and 3-5,000 per rear one. I have tryed all but the latest ones now released. They are from the 4wheel drive world. They are solid with no bearings. They are greasable. The caps have bronze sleeves in the cups and they need grease every 1K mile. If I was racing the cobra in 1/4, I would add them to the drive shaft and whole rearend. If really serious about drag racing a solid axle 9" would be installed with 4 link. Back to subject IMO both U joints are manufactured at the same time. The only different is the final drilling of the grease fitting and rifle drilling of the joint. I grease the car 3 times a year with Amsoil red, water proof, and high temp. Since I have the tunnel off for trans and clutch changes and can get to the rearend inner joints, I hit them all at once, weather they need it or not. Solid or Hollow? Solid is stronger, but I don't like the fact of if anything like water gets in the joint, the joint is shot. The other way you can grease the joint and remove 98% of the water. If the drive train is setup correctly with matching angles for the drive shaft, I will stay with the hollow ones. I read somewhere they are about 20% weaker than solid. With 10 years of racing on mine and the rearend starting to leak from a stub shaft seal, I am thinking of changing them for safety reasons. Hope this helps, Yea Pat, HAPPY FATHERS DAY. No rain here, going to seen my dad. Later Your new pesty brother.Rick L Ps I am not changing my last name.

[blykins]

I had a 425ci Windsor in mine the first time. Then I built a 428FE to replace it. There wasn't anything wrong with the Windsor, it actually made more torque than the FE, but I get bored easy and wanted to try something new.

I agree with these guys about horsepower to a certain point. In my eyes, you can have as much horsepower as you want, you don't have to drive it wide open all the time.

With that being said, there are drawbacks to large amounts of horsepower. But with a large cubic inch big block, you can have 500-600hp with street-easy driving characteristics.

Where you start having problems with horsepower is when you're trying to squeeze 500-600hp out of a 347, a 351, or something with low displacement. Then you have to start looking at really large head port volumes, large cam durations, and high compression.

You'll find that a lot of guys have large cubic inch FE's with 600hp or maybe a tad more...and they're completely streetable.

I had the very combination that you're talking about....428ci FE, aluminum heads, Tunnel Wedge intake, dual Demon carbs, etc. That engine dyno'd at 533hp and 472 lb-ft of torque. That engine was a just a hair over the top...it had 11:1 compression (but ran on 93 octane) and a large solid roller cam. And yes, the dual carbs are a pain in the butt sometimes.

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by RAO-3

Rick, as I understand it, the emissions requirements are determined by the year of the block, so to stay away from the catalytic converters, am I not stuck with a 428 FE iron block? My thought, given the emissions situation was the 428 block with aluminum heads, the street cam with hydraulic lifters and twin holleys. You don't like the sidepipes? HP wise, I was hoping for something like say 450hp or thereabouts. Not looking for rough idle, no racing, just driving, cruising and parking. Also was thinking the twin holleys to be closer to what was on the cobra 428's, rather than performance.

Patrickt, from everything I've read on this board, the outboard rear seems to be the way to go so I was going to go with that.

Ray

Ray-
That is correct. Year of the block will determine what emissions equipment the engine must have on it. If you get yourself a 60s dated coded block, you will only need a pcv valve.

[SoTxButler]

Rick,

I always enjoy your ramblings and learn a lot too. I have a 488" FE with a Doug Nash 5 spd. No overdrive, fifth is 1 to 1. First is 3.27. I just installed a set of gears that gives me a 2.36 ratio in the rear. You mention to be careful not to lug an FE. This new set of gears gives me 63 MPH at 2100 RPM's in 5th. At what RPM is an FE lugging? This new set of gears is very nice and the ratios feel very good. I had straight cut gears and the wine was unbearable, so these are helical cut gears. Needless to say, there is ample torque to pull whatever I want to pull, I just don't want to lug it down.

What do you think?

[blykins]

What do you mean lug it down?

If the oil pressure is good and the cam will let you, run it down as far as you want. That's what torque is for.

[SoTxButler]

Brent,

We think alike...just wondered what Rick thought was lugging down an FE.

[RICK LAKE]

SoTxButler Ross I disagree with Brent on lugging a motor. Your cam shaft has a power band to it, anywhere from 2,000 rpm to 8,000 rpm. The torque band is lower that the HP band. The motor starts lugging when you are in top gear and trying to keep the car or accellerate in top gear at a low rpm. You are not running a diesel where you can turn 1,400rpm and accellerate in to gear. You are already in the torque range of a diesel motor. The torque range is about 500 rpm below the bottom of the power band of your cam. Lugging feels like a hesitation or a miss. IMO the motor is working extra harder to turn over and will pound the bottom end bearings. It doesn't matter weather you are running 100 psi or 30 psi oil pressure. When driving your car you want to keep the motor in the power band. Most cam manufactures tell you the rpm range of the camshaft so you can also match the manifold, carb, exhaust, and cubic inches for the best power in that range. I build torque motors and have run my 3.31 rear gearing and have the motor in overdrive, (.78) pull the car along in top gear at 1,500 rpm. It is not good for the motor. The 40 lbs flywheel helps to stop the lugging with stored energy. I can't do the same thing with my 22 lbs flywheel. I sure you have driven the car at say 40 mph in 5 gear, steep on the accellerator and the car starts to buck, you then down shift and take off, that's lugging. There are things that I have learned from talking to some of the best PRO motor builders, and the top 3 all say the same thing about the damage done for lugging motors. FE has a very heavy assembly wieght. Has rod bearing the same width as a 351 windsor, yet carries about 150 to 200 grams more mass. This is one of the reasons I run HVHP oil pumps. I don't believe the number you see at the gauage is the same you see in the back of the motor or the rod bearings on #7&8. These are the rod bearings that go first in most motors with front oil supply. They are the last to get oil on startup, unless you are using a peroiler. Ross I just installed a 482 stroker kit and pulled the 452 out. I checked the bearings and they looked like the day they where installed the coating was still on them. I had a small groove in the #5 main. Not sure what caused this. All I can say after abusing my car for 8 years of autocrossing and road racing, I am having no problems with the motor. What camshaft are you running? Sorry for the rambling. I have to learn to shorten the answers, Problem is I don't want to leave anything out. Rick L.