Let's talk engines...

[blykins]

Rick,

I'm sure some of our replies get lost in translation....however, I'm not talking about running an engine at 1000rpm in 5th with it bucking and missing the whole way. I'm talking about running it at a lower rpm....1500-1800 if the cam and the rest of the components warrant that. Shoot my little 302 in my Mustang will cruise all day long in overdrive at 1800 rpm without a whimper.

You have to remember, a good majority of the FE's were truck engines...352, 361, 391, etc....some in F600 and F700 heavy duty trucks. If it were so hard to "lug" these engines around, I'm sure another engine choice would have been made.

Now, take a hotter FE with a high duration cam that won't idle under 1000, then yes, I agree with you.

[RICK LAKE]

blykins Brent you are right to most of the point. I worked on U-Haul trucks alot for about a year. Some had a 4,000 rpm govenors and top speed of 64 mph on them At 3,000 rpm they had no more power. Gearing 10 spd trans amd 2 spd rearends. The trucks came loaded with coolers for all fluids on them. They made great torque to get them moving. They had heavy flywheels for stored energy to move the truck. The cam shaft was all about building torque at 1,000- 1,200 rpms. The 352 and 391 FT and 390 in the light trucks. The truck blocks where stronger in webbing and possibly core material, ( higher nickle content ) IMO all came with harder bearings than street motors. Most truck had 100K on them and running good. No knocking, No smoke, just alot of oil leaks. Your mustang is designed with 2 major things, 1st 0 emmissions with todays needs. 2nd to make the bigger powerband possible for the car to run in. As you said pull from 1,400 rpm to 6,000 rpm. Turbos or supercharger make this alot easier than straight motor. Gas mileage will suffer about 2-3 mpg. Your Mustang motor is a torque motor with a light valve train to give it the extra rpms in top end. This is what gets me, when I talk about Beehive springs. They have been in GM car since 95 with little to no failures and motors running over 150,000 miles. I have run them for 3 years( 98% racing) and love them. Again it's about matching parts for a certain power range. Diesels where not that small back in the 70's remember? It was the 80's when the first diesel was in Olds cars. 350 block with diesel heads, They also had a V6 motor. Noisy, Leaken, No Power BUT 35 mpg and could pull 20" + trailers with full loads. It couldn't get out of it's own way. Today 500-1,200 HP, 550- 2,000 FT of torque. 7,000 pound plus Dually running low 11's in the 1/4 mile. Now thats a diesel. Lug your motor if you want, I will pass, IMO it hurts the motor. Rick L.

[RAO-3]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

Ray-
That is correct. Year of the block will determine what emissions equipment the engine must have on it. If you get yourself a 60s dated coded block, you will only need a pcv valve.

Thanks Chaplin for confirming what I thought about the NJ regs. Since the 428fe block will do what I want, why look for trouble by substituting a newer block?

Ray

[RAO-3]

Rick, interesting commentary about lugging the engine. Does this only apply to big block engines? Reason I ask is that it seems everyone says to try to run at the lowest rpm in order to reduce gas consumption, and no one ever mentions the possible problems with doing that.

[RAO-3]

Originally Posted by DonC

Had my engine built by Joe Lapine at Danbury Competition Engines, one of ERA's recommended engine builders. I knew I wanted a 428 since it was a good choice for the cost vs bragging rights controversies.
DonC

Hi DonC,

After speaking with Peter, I will also be going with one of Joe's engines. From what you have described, I'm looking for much the same type of engine. Thanks for your input!

Ray

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RAO-3

Hi DonC,

After speaking with Peter, I will also be going with one of Joe's engines. From what you have described, I'm looking for much the same type of engine. Thanks for your input!

Ray

Contact Joe earlier rather than later so he can be on the lookout for a quality 428 block. You want the extra webbing on the crank saddle. These blocks are no longer just lying around the junkyards -- he will find you one, but there is a certain element of "luck" involved and the sooner he knows you want one the better your chances are of finding it.

EDIT -- here are some shots showing you what I mean.

Normal crank saddle:


Extra webbing on the crank saddle:

[RAO-3]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Contact Joe earlier rather than later so he can be on the lookout for a quality 428 block. You want the extra webbing on the crank saddle. These blocks are no longer just lying around the junkyards -- he will find you one, but there is a certain element of "luck" involved and the sooner he knows you want one the better your chances are of finding it.

EDIT -- here are some shots showing you what I mean.

Normal crank saddle:


Extra webbing on the crank saddle:

Ahh, okay, now I know what I'm looking for!

Peter was going to call Joe either yesterday or today; I will give him a call tomorrow to be sure he looks for the extra webbing. I appreciate the tip and the pictures!

Ray

[RICK LAKE]

RAO-3 Ray if Joe doesn't have one I might know where to get one. This guy might want to build it also. He's in NJ. There might be away aroung that date stamp in the block. Check with Ponds block maker or Genises. I think one have a stamped block. It's worth the checking and gives you a bill you will need for registration. Rick L. Ps How was lunch????

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

RAO-3 Ray if Joe doesn't have one I might know where to get one. This guy might want to build it also. He's in NJ. There might be away aroung that date stamp in the block. Check with Ponds block maker or Genises. I think one have a stamped block. It's worth the checking and gives you a bill you will need for registration. Rick L. Ps How was lunch????

Rick, you're not suggesting he try and pass a phony block-date stamp off on the Jersey Motor Vehicle guys are you?!? A brand new, shiny, all aluminum block dated 40+ years ago???? You don't think the inspector just might be a car guy?

[RAO-3]

I did speak briefly to Joe today and he does have a 428fe block with the reinforced webbing for me.

Is it normal for the engine builder to want 50% up front to do these engines? When I had my engine work done on my corvette, the builder didn't ask for anything until he was done.

Ray

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by RAO-3

I did speak briefly to Joe today and he does have a 428fe block with the reinforced webbing for me.

Is it normal for the engine builder to want 50% up front to do these engines? When I had my engine work done on my corvette, the builder didn't ask for anything until he was done.

Ray

In my experience, yes. The engine builder has to front a lot of parts purchases, labor and machine work. In my case, a CSX aluminum block was a big upfront cost.

[JWheaton]

Did you already have the Corvette motor to work on?

When I was researching an engine build that was the common percentage I was given.

The deposit you gave to ERA only represents 10% of the car, so think of that as the offset to the motor.

[RodKnock]

I'm sure there are many machine shops and engine builders who have been stiffed over the years. And they want the other 50% before the engine is released to you. Personally, I think there should a 10% retention held for 30, 60, 90 days just to make sure there are REALLY no leaks and that the engine runs as advertised. Never gonna happen.

[RAO-3]

Thanks RodKnock and Jamie for your feedback about the engine; in one case I had the engine and in one case I was getting a new block with the corvette, but I had been dealing with this guy for a while so for all I know, he was giving me a break on that.

BTW, pls understand that I'm not complaining about it, just was not aware and so decided to ask the experiences of others.

Is there anything special I should ask Joe to do regarding this block, or would he know to properly check it out?

Ray

[BossCER]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

RAO-3 There might be away aroung that date stamp in the block. Check with Ponds block maker or Genises. I think one have a stamped block. It's worth the checking and gives you a bill you will need for registration. l:

Pond is the mfg. that has a date code.
If the block is painted, I don't know that anyone (including an inspector) would be able to identify it as "non-Ford"

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by RAO-3

Is there anything special I should ask Joe to do regarding this block, or would he know to properly check it out?

Ray

Verify the current bore and find out how much larger it will need to become, if it does at all, clean it and magnaflux it for cracks and sonic check it for wall thickness. Joe should know.

[RAO-3]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... Joe should know.

Very good point! I guess my thinking about going with a good reputable builder such as Joe is that he knows these engines, and what needs to be done to get a good engine with a good hp and torque, so my hope was/is that he will do what he needs to do, and I will get an engine that suits the needs that I explained to him and Peter.

I will ask him about it just the same; if anyone can think of anything else I should ask, please let me know.

I will be calling him again today, and hopefully my engine build will be getting started shortly.

Ray

[RICK LAKE]

patrickt Come on Pat, You are going from big brother to little bother?I going to tell MOM. I knew one had a date code. I was not sure if the block was Aluminium or iron. I would n't get Ray into a pickle with NJ super techs. I also know where a couple of blocks might be for sale at a top price. He will have the motor painted anyway, so there will be no problem with inspection. I think Ray might be happier with a new block then a 35+ year old motor that we have no info on. I wrote before about sonic check and see the sheet on this block. We don't have a price. Jay Brown has his writeup in Car Craft with a 445 FE low buck Buildup. There is nothing wrong with a 390 and a storker kit to make a 445 motor. We are getting to fast here when the car is 9 months away. Rick L. We need to look at transmissions, rearend gearing, Oh BOY IS THIS GREAT!!!!

[Chaplin]

Ray-
One of the things you might want to talk to Joe about would be using a stroker crank (can't have too much torque) and running a hydraulic roller cam shaft.

[RalphSchmalph]

Speaking of engines. Maybe this is a little off the point but my new BDR is going to have a 342R installed. It's polished. I read somewhere on this site that a polished engine runs hotter because it retains engine heat more than a simple iron or aluminum block. Is that true? It's not too late to get another engine. The car won't be ready until the end of the month.